Car bomb explodes in Spain

[Daithí]

MADRID, Spain - A car bomb exploded Friday outside a police station in Spain's northern Rioja region after a warning call from the Basque separatist group ETA, police said.
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The bomb went off in the city of Calahorra. There was no immediate word on casualties, but Spanish media said the Civil Guard station area targeted in the attack had been evacuated before the blast.
ETA, which ended a cease-fire in Dec. 2006 after peace talks failed, killed a former town councilor on the Basque region two days before the Spanish general election on March 9.
The group has killed more than 800 people since the late 1960s in its battle to create an independent Basque homeland in northern Spain and southwest France.
A man saying he represented ETA called highway police in the Basque region to warn of the bomb and the explosion came about hour an hour later, the newspaper El Mundo and the Europa press news agency said.

www.yahoo.com

[AngelVelasco]

Meanwhile the Spanish Goverment so proud to no negociate with ETA... I hope that this action may not interfer with the Gazte Topagunea.

[ciaranxavier]

Meanwhile the Spanish Goverment so proud to no negociate with ETA... I hope that this action may not interfer with the Gazte Topagunea.

Gazte Topagunea.

whats that?

[AngelVelasco]

http://www.gaztetopagunea.net/

What is it?

The Basque words “Gazte Topagunea” mean “youth meeting”. It consists of a meeting point for international youth organizations and cultural movements that lasts several days aiming at they meet and share their daily work, as well as they work together for common objectives. And it is also a critical meeting point to discuss and meet with other young people who have a political, social or cultural engagement with our small country, the Basque Country.

This “Gazte Topagunea” is the 6th edition, and it has become a very important reference in the calendar of the youth movement. The last edition was attended by more than 15 000 young people who during four days participated in the different activities.

[quirk]

AngelVelasco,

What would your opinion be of ETA? Would you be sympathetic and do you believe armed struggle still has a part to play in achieving the liberation of th Basque people?

Here in Ireland many people especially Irish republicans have alot of sympathy for ETA.

[Gareth]

I have no sympathy for murderers, it's a disgrace. If they want to be spoken to they should act in a civilized manner, and repent for what they have done. 800 lives taken away. And what did those lives have to do with not having independence?

[AngelVelasco]

I support armed action when it's necessary. When ETA started it was an antifascist group, many people supported it because of that. In my opinion, Spain things are currently in the same way when Franco, we have a "parliamentary franquism where the King is the successor just because Franco said, and as Franco said, the King education was totally in the franquist thought. Juan Carlos I, as Franco was and his son Felipe will, is not elected by the people. No party says nothing about a referendum to decide if we want a monarchy or a republic, the King is a true dictator so ETA keeps the same message to the same situation.

But even when things are in the same way, the way they are expressed is different and so the struggle have changed too. Currently, even when I support the armed action -because it's a way that may be taken in the future (Spain will attack social advances as they did when the fascist strike and the Civil War)-, I think that ETA may don't act anymore and let the Basque political movement (strong enough and with socialist ideology) set the Basque people free.

ETA right now is the excuse to Spain and Capitalism to criminalize revolutionary socialism, they say they (even we who are not Basque but have the same ideology) are terrorists and so they persecuted them. In Kenya, when Mau Mau dissappeared it was when national struggle became stronger and they got their independence. And now, in capitalist states, armed action goes nowhere. The main struggle is in the way of consciousness and to be solutionated in a political way as the reflect of a social movement. They got that movement, I think that ETA right now will help the Basque movement saying that they end with the armed action. I know that many people have died and it's a very difficult decission, but that's the best thing they may currently do.

[Viv]

I understood the Basque cause had made some progress in recent years. The language has been revived and I know young people have taken this up, there are kids tv programmes using Euskera and this has helped and is it now adopted in education?

Why have things suddenly taken such a retrograde step, Angel? What happened to derail the progress so badly that ETA have reverted to violence?

[AngelVelasco]

Education in Euskara is not new, even when Franco they created some ikastolak, plural of ikastola (Basque culture and language schools), even when they were not recognized or legal (quite normal being in the Spanish dictadure). But, yes, ikastolak are asociated with the plenty knowledge of the Basque situation, of being a nation and being a non-sovereign nation. I think that this fact with the asumption of socialism and armed action from Ireland and other points of the world created ETA to change the Basque situation and create a socialist Basque country.

ETA right now is very weak, many years ago they did very big actions, many people were killed. Currently what they do is attacking mainly buildings with little bombs. On March 7th they killed one ex-PSE member and it was the first time in years they killed one person. Two people were killed in the airport of Madrid but it was a "mistake", their intention was not so.

In this years the Basque cause is not increasing, it has a natural develop. What it does increase is the repression in Euskal Herria, and it is what has make many people, young and not so young. Once, a friend of mine, Basque, she told me that there were periods where there was no young people in her neighbourhood because they were all in prison. That's true that she was from a small city, but this point talks by its own. So, in my opinion, teaching the Basque culture or TV programes in euskara they may have helped, but it is repression what truly make people take all that up.

And that repression keeps going on. All the members of Batasuna (the Basque Sinn Féinn) are in prison, there have been judges to all the Basque movement: feminism, ecologism, youth, media, etc, etc... Tortures they are recognize by all but the Spanish Goverment.

But they, to the Spanish Goverment, ETA and armed action is an electoral point. I don't know how to explain the feeling it makes me because "scholar English" is very polite, but you'll know the way it will be. Hypocrysy is the smaller word in which I may think. They draw themselves as defender of democracy and freedom.

Many months ago, when the Goverment (PSOE -the Governors party- and PNV -the pseudonationalist party, right sided) was talking with ETA being Batasuna its speaker, Batasuna was the one that gave proposals to get to a peace status in Euskal Herria. They were very sensitive indeed, they didn't set self-determination as their goal. Instead of that, they gave a proposal constiting in two referendums -because Euskal Herria is currently dividen in two autonomies (Basque Country and Nafarroa)- to make only one Spanish Basque autonomy (Iparralde, the French Basque Country is under French control). With those referendums, ETA will cease acting they said, and making those referendums were totally legals and the fact is recognized in the Spanish Constitution. As I said, Batasuna was very sensitive with the proposal, they wanted to create one institution from where start the reconstruction of Euskal Herria. No socialism, no independence. A true program to national liberation and socialism using the Spanish democracy to get to that goals.

What was the actitude of the Spanish Goverment? Nor Spanish nor Basque regionalists (so Spanish too) do anything, they didn't say a word. They simply wait an excuse to say that they were trying to get to a peace ending but those terrorists didn't want that point. Within ETA, there were people that thought that "talking with Spain is useless, we'll only get to our goals by armed action" and those people acted by their own with a small action. Enough to the Spanish parties to end negociation (if negociation ever started) and, so, make true the thought that negociation with Spain is useless.

Till then, repression has increased in a huge way. All Batasuna circle is in prison, many people from Segi (a youth socialist organization) are in prison too, all the Basque parties to independence are ilegalized, etc... And all this is only a reinforce of a situation that lasts for many many years. It's pretty sure that this Gazte Topagunea will be last one because Spain will not let it be anymore.

And, even more, Spain have seen that using ETA is very useful to ilegalize other organizations that also claims for self-determination. In Castille, Andalusia, Galicia, Catalonia... the main organizations in that way there's a media attack to catalogue us as the "ETA points outside Euskal Herria". I'm member of one of those organizations, and here where movement is still a newborn baby compairing it with the Basque one, we have a very special and close treatment.

Spain is a true fascist State, as I said before: a parliamentary franquism in a capitalist system. Only one nation is possible, only one economical system is possible. All what goes outward that ideas is persecuted and ilegalized.

[Viv]

Education in Euskara is not new, even when Franco they created some ikastolak, plural of ikastola (Basque culture and language schools), even when they were not recognized or legal (quite normal being in the Spanish dictadure). But, yes, ikastolak are asociated with the plenty knowledge of the Basque situation, of being a nation and being a non-sovereign nation. I think that this fact with the asumption of socialism and armed action from Ireland and other points of the world created ETA to change the Basque situation and create a socialist Basque country.

I have heard anti-ETA people say that Euskara is not a language as such, but a collection of dialects. I have heard others say it is a very ancient language and fascinating to linguists because it has no roots in any other language variety and is quite unique - although of course there are influences from French and Spanish through contact with those, Euskara does not derive from either of those and appears not to be connected with any other known language.
Has Euskara been formalised as a language, I assume if it is used as a medium for education that must be the case?

ETA right now is very weak, many years ago they did very big actions, many people were killed. Currently what they do is attacking mainly buildings with little bombs. On March 7th they killed one ex-PSE member and it was the first time in years they killed one person. Two people were killed in the airport of Madrid but it was a "mistake", their intention was not so.

You appear to be supportive of their actions...do you suggest they bomb but do not expect people to be hurt?
What is your own perspective? I understand there are other regions which would like/already have some level of autonomy in government and there are at least 7 recognised regional languages in Spain. Where does Andalusia stand with respect to this, is there any issue regarding this for that region?

In this years the Basque cause is not increasing, it has a natural develop. What it does increase is the repression in Euskal Herria, and it is what has make many people, young and not so young. Once, a friend of mine, Basque, she told me that there were periods where there was no young people in her neighbourhood because they were all in prison. That's true that she was from a small city, but this point talks by its own. So, in my opinion, teaching the Basque culture or TV programes in euskara they may have helped, but it is repression what truly make people take all that up.

If this is accurate, it is to be expected people will become militant. Just out of interest, can you support this with some links, or evidence. I am very interested in reading background about it.

And that repression keeps going on. All the members of Batasuna (the Basque Sinn Féinn) are in prison, there have been judges to all the Basque movement: feminism, ecologism, youth, media, etc, etc... Tortures they are recognize by all but the Spanish Goverment.

But they, to the Spanish Goverment, ETA and armed action is an electoral point. I don't know how to explain the feeling it makes me because "scholar English" is very polite, but you'll know the way it will be. Hypocrysy is the smaller word in which I may think. They draw themselves as defender of democracy and freedom.

Agreed, I had that perception of Spanish government that it has moved on since the oppressive Franco regime and that is how it is portrayed.

Many months ago, when the Goverment (PSOE -the Governors party- and PNV -the pseudonationalist party, right sided) was talking with ETA being Batasuna its speaker, Batasuna was the one that gave proposals to get to a peace status in Euskal Herria. They were very sensitive indeed, they didn't set self-determination as their goal. Instead of that, they gave a proposal constiting in two referendums -because Euskal Herria is currently dividen in two autonomies (Basque Country and Nafarroa)- to make only one Spanish Basque autonomy (Iparralde, the French Basque Country is under French control). With those referendums, ETA will cease acting they said, and making those referendums were totally legals and the fact is recognized in the Spanish Constitution. As I said, Batasuna was very sensitive with the proposal, they wanted to create one institution from where start the reconstruction of Euskal Herria. No socialism, no independence. A true program to national liberation and socialism using the Spanish democracy to get to that goals.

What was the actitude of the Spanish Goverment? Nor Spanish nor Basque regionalists (so Spanish too) do anything, they didn't say a word. They simply wait an excuse to say that they were trying to get to a peace ending but those terrorists didn't want that point. Within ETA, there were people that thought that "talking with Spain is useless, we'll only get to our goals by armed action" and those people acted by their own with a small action. Enough to the Spanish parties to end negociation (if negociation ever started) and, so, make true the thought that negociation with Spain is useless.

Till then, repression has increased in a huge way. All Batasuna circle is in prison, many people from Segi (a youth socialist organization) are in prison too, all the Basque parties to independence are ilegalized, etc... And all this is only a reinforce of a situation that lasts for many many years. It's pretty sure that this Gazte Topagunea will be last one because Spain will not let it be anymore.

And, even more, Spain have seen that using ETA is very useful to ilegalize other organizations that also claims for self-determination. In Castille, Andalusia, Galicia, Catalonia... the main organizations in that way there's a media attack to catalogue us as the "ETA points outside Euskal Herria". I'm member of one of those organizations, and here where movement is still a newborn baby compairing it with the Basque one, we have a very special and close treatment.

Spain is a true fascist State, as I said before: a parliamentary franquism in a capitalist system. Only one nation is possible, only one economical system is possible. All what goes outward that ideas is persecuted and ilegalized.

That is unfortunate and it is difficult to see any kind of logic behind the policy of oppression. Plainly rebellion must be expected under such an unrepresentative government.
It will not change unless the people stand up, I think. What is the mood of the people in general? I have heard two viewpoints on this, one supportive of ETA and one totally against. It is difficult to gain objectivity. Are the majority of people happy with the situation or unhappy but not ready to act on that?

[BlackBaron]

I have no sympathy for murderers, it's a disgrace. If they want to be spoken to they should act in a civilized manner, and repent for what they have done. 800 lives taken away. And what did those lives have to do with not having independence?

You have no sympathy with murderers....and yet the Church of Ireland condones abortion. Condones the brutal murder of the nearest thing to innocence you will find in our polluted humanity. What is a civilized manner- the occupation of neighbouring countries by force of arms and the exploitation of their peoples ala the Madrid and Westminister regiemes? What is the difference between a gentleman and a terrorist...that the gentleman pays a thug in a uniform to do his killing for him and that makes it either medicine or policing?

It is interesting to note that both the Provisional IRA and ETA began as Christian organizations. Gerry Adams and Martin Mc Guiness were initially a Marxist faction who used the rhetoric of class struggle in order to sideline their political opponents in Sinn Fein and eventually lead the "risen people" into "civilization" ("Ulsterization", "Europeanization", etc). Now that it is no longer of value for them in their struggle for personal power they have dropped their Marxism and started talking about the "interests of Business" from their Armani suits (as if the interests of a given Community should not be the interests of ALL its members).

[AngelVelasco]

ETA have never been a Christian organization, it was created from people who left the traditionalist Basque nationalism, with a strong religious sense (the tradionalist nationalism, I mean). There may be many Christian people within ETA in that period and many Basque priest supported them, but ETA itself was not a Christian organization. I may look for that point, but I'm pretty sure that ETA has never been Christian.

Viv, many Spanish people for those who only recognize Spain as only one nation they say that here we only speak Spanish. Basque, Catalonian, Galician... they are only speeches and dialects from Spanish. It's part of the Spanish nationalism. Euskara is a recognized language, they are working in a standart Basque rule, Euskal batua (United Euskara), and orthographic rules change depending on the Basque Language Association President. Despite this point, Euskara is a language and many programs in the Basque TV are spoken in Basque (not all the Basque people speaks Basque but Castilian)

About the action, if they want to kill people they know where they should put them. Many years ago, when they did so, their bombs were in very transited streets or in malls. Only killing Isaías Carrasco last 7th, they have done an action where killing a person was the main intention. It looks like if there were isolated actions from a very weak organization. As me, many people supported ETA because of its anti-fascist struggle and fascism keeps going on... but ETA have to change, even disappear, to let the Basque movement get to their goals.

The links... most of my information comes from talking with Basque friends, political and non-politicals ones. If I were able to give those links, probably there were in Castilian or Basque. Many Basque organizations sites have a translation into English: Gara is a Basque newspaper, http://www.gara.net/, and Askapena an internationalist Basque organization, http://www.askapena.org/ They have links to other sites thay may help you :)

And about the Basque situation, it's very hard to see a resolution. Every try it's catalogue as ETA and so as a terrorist try or one supported by terrorists. What I'm sure is that all revolutionary socialists we have to be together with our common enemy and so the Basque trouble may be solutionated in a democratic way and all the nations within Spain will get our self-determination.

[Gareth]

You have no sympathy with murderers....and yet the Church of Ireland condones abortion. Condones the brutal murder of the nearest thing to innocence you will find in our polluted humanity.

What source do you have that suggests that the Church of Ireland, and Anglicanism worldwide supports abortion?

There are 3 differing rites in the Anglican Church, Anglo-Catholic, Evangelical Anglican, and Liberal Anglican.

I am of the second.


Positions taken by Anglicans across the world are divergent although most would refrain from simplifying the debate into "Pro Choice" or "Pro Life" Camps. The Church of England, for example, shares the opinion held by the Roman Catholic Church. In a 1980 statement, the church declared, "In the light of our conviction that the foetus has the right to live and develop as a member of the human family, we see abortion, the termination of that life by the act of man, as a great moral evil. We do not believe that the right to life, as a right pertaining to persons, admits of no exceptions whatever; but the right of the innocent to life admits surely of few exceptions indeed.

Perhaps if you did some research you might know this. But I would like an official record of General Synod voting in Dublin, or an official record from Lambeth Conference 1998 to back up your opinion. Or I would like a statement from Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.

I for one find abortion morally repugnant.

I also find these deaths by ETA morally repugnant. How anyone could willingly take the life of innocents just for land and a State is disturbing.

[Phædrus]

Despicable. I support Basque gaining independence, but car bombing and terrorism is far and away the worst way to go about things. If the government refuses to grant them independence, they should make like Ghandi or Thoreau. Peaceful resistance is always preferable to violence, though there are cases where there is no other choice.

[AngelVelasco]

Gandhi was just a peace supporter in a very very violent context, and he was supported by many Indian bourgeois people that had no doubt in starting a civil war that created Pakistan just because they wanted earn more money.

Gandhi was only an international peace symbol outside India to force the British Imperium to negociate with India not for a popular independence but for those bourgeois to have their own national market. Without that support, Gandhi would be just a crazy man in an Indian village. And that support doesn't exist in Euskal Herria, the Basque national market is not the Basque country but Spain, and so they support Spain, they support a fascist state.

In Spain there will never be peace because Spain avoids giving main rights as self-determination, and with no self-determination nobody can appeal to "peace". They may appeal to end armed action, but that does not mean peace. ETA should end not for morality not for repugnant deaths but only because ending their actions may let the Basque socialist movement reach their goals of a Socialist Basque country.

[Viv]

Gandhi was just a peace supporter in a very very violent context, and he was supported by many Indian bourgeois people that had no doubt in starting a civil war that created Pakistan just because they wanted earn more money.

Gandhi was only an international peace symbol outside India to force the British Imperium to negociate with India not for a popular independence but for those bourgeois to have their own national market. Without that support, Gandhi would be just a crazy man in an Indian village. And that support doesn't exist in Euskal Herria, the Basque national market is not the Basque country but Spain, and so they support Spain, they support a fascist state.

In Spain there will never be peace because Spain avoids giving main rights as self-determination, and with no self-determination nobody can appeal to "peace". They may appeal to end armed action, but that does not mean peace. ETA should end not for morality not for repugnant deaths but only because ending their actions may let the Basque socialist movement reach their goals of a Socialist Basque country.

Se puede diversificarlo? Esta situado acerca de la Francia tambien. No hay posibilidad de entrar en negocios en el mercado de esta pais?

Can they diversify? They are situated near the French border, is there not a possibility of entering that market also?

[LARKIN32]

What can be achieved by this sort of action? Nothing.

ETA should end their campaign.why?

Gandhi was just a peace supporter in a very very violent context, and he was supported by many Indian bourgeois people that had no doubt in starting a civil war that created Pakistan just because they wanted earn more money.

Gandhi was only an international peace symbol outside India to force the British Imperium to negociate with India not for a popular independence but for those bourgeois to have their own national market. Without that support, Gandhi would be just a crazy man in an Indian village. And that support doesn't exist in Euskal Herria, the Basque national market is not the Basque country but Spain, and so they support Spain, they support a fascist state.

In Spain there will never be peace because Spain avoids giving main rights as self-determination, and with no self-determination nobody can appeal to "peace". They may appeal to end armed action, but that does not mean peace. ETA should end not for morality not for repugnant deaths but only because ending their actions may let the Basque socialist movement reach their goals of a Socialist Basque country.
is their much grassroots support in the basque country for continuing armed struggle against the spanish govt.?

[AngelVelasco]

People is fed up with armed struggle. I mean, there's a basis (I think that's what you mean with grassroot) that may continue it if it were necessary. But that's the point: if it were necessary, many of those who will defend those actions are more interesting in a true resolution of the Basque struggle. They don't want to do "free" violence, with no sense, they do it just because it's a way to get a free Euskal Herria and one step to socialism, they goal is that, a Socialist Basque State, no violent actions by any means.

That's also a problem with current ETA, they are getting further with the Basque nationalism. For example, one of their lasts action, a bomb in the airport of Madrid, Arnaldo Otegi (Batasuna #1) knew it happened because he was in a negociation table to get a peaceful resolution in Euskal Herria and the "Spanish forces" (PSOE and PNV) told him. I will say nothing about the action in Calahorra, the Guardia Civil is a military police that works on the streets, created just to repress popular movement (they were born to repress Andalusian movement indeed); but the action against Isaías Carrasco has no sense. There were many many years that ETA didn't do an action just to kill somebody, and one Basque partner friend of mine it was me who told him about the action on March 7th. ETA is very weak and it looks like if some of its member were acting on their own. They have the materials, so...
That's what I mean, there's a grassroot, but people want to be set free by other ways.

Viv, there's no tradition between Basque country and France, only the Iparralde (currently under French goverment) and there there's no economical troubles but a strongly centralist state as France that denies national recognition, not only the Basque one. The main economical Basque tradition is in Spain and they are traditionalists...The Spain trouble is hard to explain indeed, it's not like UK where England is the "leader" and occuper force. Here it's like the upper classes of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England were together and created one only country, UK, and they defend that point instead of their owns countries.

Capitalism worked in a huge way to situate things in Spain as they are right now and the explanation may last forever, but simply imagine that Henry VIII didn't separate the Churches and that all UK were together in a moral, religious way as basis of a inner market... that's Spain.

The union between the peoples in Spain is not an union but a communion... and when Spain has been more Spain than ever (Franco), they appealed to the Catholics Kings and their Crusade to save Spain. In 1492 they did it against andalusian muslims, in 1936 til 1975 (and on) they do it against "the inner enemy", the "red separatist menace". Even more, Catholic sins they were criminal actions persecuted when Franco's Goverment... And Catholic Church keeps on talking the need to defend de "moral value" that means the "unity of Spain", and many many more things that show that Franco died but franquism didn't, it only changed into a capitalist economic pattern (started while Franco was still living).

[Jabato]

IMO ETA members are just a bunch of assesins. End of the story.
There is nothing to negotiate with asessins.

There are only two options:
1.- Put their weapons down and all of them with blood crimes on their backs, will enter jail.
2.- Shot them down asap if they do not like option number 1

There is no freedom in the Vascongadas. Most of the vascs are under threat.
100% of non nationalists politicians do need body guard to simply have a cup of coffe in a bar. They are not racially different than the rest of the spaniards. They do not have a different culture than the rest of the spaniards.
Vascongadas have never been a kingdom, nor a county, was simply a region of the Kingdom of León.

Saludos

[Jabato]

AngelVelasco wrote:
in 1936 'till 1975 (and on) they do it against "the inner enemy", the "red separatist menace".

Between 1934 and 1936 the spanish left was behind the multiples riots we had in Spain. The spanish left was not democratic but marxist/leninist, therefore, fascists. They didn't believe in democracy, that's why socialist said: if socialists are defeated in the general elections of 1934 we will go straight to violence.

Before 1936 hundreds of churches were burnt and robbed. Thousands of catholic priests were tortured, raped and killed. People was sent to jail simply for wearing a suit and a tie.

Socialists in Spain just wanted a communist state in this country.

But History, Lenin used to say that lies were a political weapon, has told us only one version of the Spanish II Republic.

The Spanish Socialists Party sent us to our civil war.

Saludos

[Enver]

AngelVelasco wrote:
in 1936 'till 1975 (and on) they do it against "the inner enemy", the "red separatist menace".

Between 1934 and 1936 the spanish left was behind the multiples riots we had in Spain. The spanish left was not democratic but marxist/leninist, therefore, fascists. They didn't believe in democracy, that's why socialist said: if socialists are defeated in the general elections of 1934 we will go straight to violence.

Before 1936 hundreds of churches were burnt and robbed. Thousands of catholic priests were tortured, raped and killed. People was sent to jail simply for wearing a suit and a tie.

Socialists in Spain just wanted a communist state in this country.

But History, Lenin used to say that lies were a political weapon, has told us only one version of the Spanish II Republic.

The Spanish Socialists Party sent us to our civil war.

Saludos

Are you a Libertarian Socialist/Anarchist comrade?

[AngelVelasco]

Looks more like a fascist than a libertarian person.

Let's see, dude, fascists you only have one message and so it's so easy to "argue". Always trying to justify the strike against a democratic goverment that started a civil war and was the first step to a dictadure where many people died just because don't think in a Spanish way.

You say that there were riots... what kind of riots? Can you explain it better? There were not so many actions where the people by their own tried to have the land they worked. Only landowners, those who kept population between a thin line of poverty and starvation, may consider that actions as riots. If in some villages the population attacked the landowners and all those people is just because the situation they commited. If you avoid any peaceful situation you are forcing a violent one.

Socialist Spanish Party existed? They were the Frente Popular (Popular Front), a very big combination of different left-sided people: from leninism to trotskism (POUM) and anarchism (FAI). And the main "trouble" of the Frente Popular was that they were considering a change in land property, the basis point of the landowners privileges. So, to avoid losing their lands and privileges against the working-class people they decide to support and defend a fascist strike and a dictadure. A strike against a democratic goverment, are you sure that were the left-sided people those who were against democracy? Are you really sure? What do you think democracy is? A fascist dictadure? WTF!

Churches were burnt, obviously it happened but, why? Just because what I've said, Spanish Church is mainly Spanish, and so they supported those people that defend a Catholic orthodox point of view (you know: Católico, apostólico y romano). Do you think that left-sided people were not religious? Obviously they were, not all of them in the same that all fascists were not the same (franquism and primoriverism are very different indeed but both of them are falangists). What happened? That most of the churches in that period they were talking to the people to against the goverment, and many many of those pious priests, while the Civil War, they took part in the war in the fascist group even using people -women and children- as human shield. Most of the churches were burnt not while 1934-36 but meanwhile the Civil War and because of that fact: they supported privileges of the upper-class people instead to fight for what Christianism is supposed to be. If they were being really catholics, they were supported the people and no the fascists.

There's a film, "Tierra y libertad", "Land and freedom", from Ken Loach (bilingual, Castilian-English, subtitled) that's shows a very very partial point of view and totally out from reality about what the Popular Front did but that shows perfectly the acts of the Church while the Civil War.

Justify the fascist strike the way you like, but if you do so the thing you cannot never do is critisize armed action because they did it and the situation they created is what did many people create ETA. And never use terms like "democracy" talking or defending a fascist dictature that keep going on right now.

[Jabato]

AngelVelasco wrote:
Looks more like a fascist than a libertarian person

Why do you insult me, man?

Saludos

[AngelVelasco]

I've said you look like, that's not an offense but a thought. And you're justifying the fascist coup d'état with a fascist point of view. "Si anda como un gato, maulla como un gato y salta como un gato, ¿qué es?" (If it walks like a cat, meows like a cat and jumps like a cat... what it is?)

If I'm wrong, ok, sorry, but it doesn't mean you look like one of them.

[Jabato]

AngelVelasco wrote:
I've said you look like

That's exactly what I understood from your words: I look like a fascist.
And that's not a thought, but an insult.

I guess we can't hardly have a proper debate from now on, except if you change the way you use the words, in order to explain your points of view regarding any matter, otherwise a rational conversation is impossible to achieve.

Saludos

[AngelVelasco]

Ain't you a fascist? If you are not, where's the problem? It should be very easy for you to belie me, isn't it? The way I use the words? What way? The way where I've excuse myself if you're not a fascist? Anda ya, chaval.

If the problem is that you cannot going on this arguement, don't have to try to make things up like it were me the unable to argue for an imaginated actitude of mine.

[Jabato]

AngelVelasco wrote:
Ain't you a fascist?

Definitely no, I'm not.

AngelVelasco wrote:
If you are not, where's the problem?

The problem is that you're labelling me as a fascist, simply because I have a different point of view than you.

AngelVelasco wrote:
The way I use the words? What way?

A not very educated way, when you have to resort to an insult as one of the very first of your reasonings.

AngelVelasco wrote:
If the problem is that you cannot going on this arguement,

No, no, you're totally wrong. I really wish to have a proper debate regarding any matter, with you or any other forumite, but not at any price.
Insults and the lack of education in the debate=bad atmosphere in this subforum=more insults=............

In 1934 we had general elections in Spain, because at that time Spain was a democratic country. IMO the spanish left, comunists, socialists and anarchists lead us into the civil war.

Some examples.
Let's not forget that these words were said before the general elections, Spain was nearly to have in 1934, so this was the way the spanish left understood democracy.

CNT (anarchists):
"we are not going to this general elections but to a revolution to imposse the libertarian comunism in Spain, workers get ready the bombs and the guns!."

Largo Caballero (one of the most important socialist leader):
"If the socialists party of Spain is defeated in this next general elections, we'll go straight to violence, because if we have to choose between fascims and anarchy or chaos, we rather prefer chaos and anarchy."

Saludos

[AngelVelasco]

The problem is that you're labelling me as a fascist, simply because I have a different point of view than you.

Sure. I said you looked like a fascist not just for having a different point of view but for the things you said to justify the fascist strike, the same things that every fascist have in mind. And only they do have those kind of justifications, nobody else. Justifying the fascist action, saying that was a communist fault, ignoring the fascists action before the coup d'etat, increasing (in a exagerated way) what the red front did... Saying you look like a fascist is not a insult but a fact. The only thing may explain you were not a fascist is that you were a nazi, or that new joke of "national-bolshevism" hahaha

"The Civil War was started by communism"... yeah! Franco military reaction was simply that, a reaction to save democracy, isn't it? That's way when he won put a dictature instead of keeping the system he defended... And your pic... hey, dude, you keep looking like a fascist, ¿sabes?. A typical one indeed.

All what you say about communists are only quotations explained (if they really said so) for the situation of the fascists, who do attacked democracy goverment just because it was going to a non-desiderable point for them. Things before elections were so hard that both of them were outraged but when the Republic had a right-sided goverment, what did the "enemies"? Respect the goverment... oh my god! How it's possible? Those enemies of democracy respecting democratic results!

Do you know Casas Viejas? Do you know October 8th? Many people died then and it was during the II Republic, that's a revolution? A revolution stopped by revolutionaries? If things were so simply as you suppose from those quotations, why the goverment didn't support those actions instead of repressing them? Maybe things were not red or white ;) Maybe that point is too hard for you to endure it, too complex to be understood.

The most important thing: you ignore what fascists said and did. You see a broken glass and say the glass got broken by its own... but you don't see the kids playing around. That's a simplification, or even manipulation, of the facts to make them look the way you want to. Who really acted in a military way? Communists or fascists? Maybe History is different for you and on July 18th what happened was a Revolution collapsed thanks to the Holy Crusade of Franco and Spain.

Don't worry, Pinochet was also a democratic defender (Thatcher said) and it was everything fault of the Allende's goverment. And the fascist action in Chile was also to defend democratic results.

[Jabato]

AngelVelasco wrote:
I said you looked like a fascist not just for having a different point of view but for the things you said to justify the fascist strike,

But aren't the things I said, simply, a different point of view.

You believe that Franco was a bloody fascists, that didn't like democracy and, as soon as the left got the power he did commited a cup de etat. This is in a few words your point of view, please correct me if I'm wrong.

On the other hand, I believe that the left never wanted a democracy in Spain and that's why they were promoting riots, killings, robberies in order to start off a communist revolution.

So if you state your opinion in the way you like is OK. You're progresist

If I state my opinion in the way I like I'm a fascist.

C'mon, let's be serious.

Saludos

[AngelVelasco]

Oh, sorry, Franco acted in a democratic way, the coup d'etat is an imagination of mine, isn't it? And Franco was a bloody fascist, because "bloody fascist" means "maldito fascista". If what you meant was "sanguinary", wars are not blood-free if you mean so; but during the dictadure many people died just because do not support fascism. Even people who were traveling running away from the fascist occupation were killed: children and women. How many children were killed by communists? How many women? Only were killed those who had an active participation meanwhile the war, and only during the war. Before the fascist sublevation, the Frente Popular killed no fascist but did so with those workers who tried to start riots. Can you demostrate any riot you talk about?

Left goverment supported riots and so in a way that every worker movement or try of riot was military repressed. You really don't know anything about Casas Viejas, do you? And what happend in Asturies? Not really, is it? You keep on justifying a fascist military reaction against a democratic elected goverment because those imaginated riots, what only happened in a very low numbers of villages where fascists supporters were killed, and for free but for their actuation during the war. They killed people, so people killed fascists. Fascists didn't respected the people in any sense: killing, rapings, expropiation where lands were put in common in the village people. Those who advanced into democratic ways, not only while the Republic, were the leftish people. Fascist make the people die for starvation while they got rich meals at rich restaurants. Is that democracy?

If that means they didn't wanted democracy is that simply you do are a fascist who thinks that communism means antidemocratic thoughts, violence by any means, libertinism and so on. You critisize the left organizations but have a complete silence about fascism and the way they got to the goverment and things they did.

And currently they make Spanish priests, fascists, are canonized but those Basque priest killed by fascism are totally ignored. Weren't they priest? Weren't they killed during the war? Franco was a dictator, and just so means that he wasn't a democratic person. We still are in the fascist dictadure but in a capitalist economical system. Juan Carlos I is impossible to touch out of the main control (so, we're not in a democracy) and it's so just because Franco said. And aperturism to capitalism started in 1959, when Franco... the only difference is that it was completed in 1986 with the King. The system is exactly the same.

So, what I said: you are a fascist. Don't try to look like if you were not. It was easy to know it... your pic and your messages speak by their own.

[Jabato]

So, what I said: you are a fascist. Don't try to look like if you were not. It was easy to know it... your pic and your messages speak by their own.

You are simply a malcriado.

Only two options:

1.- You are a teenager, therefore, you are not guilty. Even when I've found a lot of teenagers surfing the net, but most of them were much more mature than you.
2.- You are not a teenager therefore, you got a problem, man.

Anyway, this is the last time I waste my precious time with you.

¡fuerte tolete!

Saludos chavalín

[AngelVelasco]

Thanks for saying nothing. You haven't been able to say no riot done while the Republic (they only lasted 2 days and only 20 churches were burnt all over Spain -Spain... the 20 millions churches land), you haven't shown no arguement to things I said, you do have justified Franco's reaction against democracy, you do have increased what leftish people did and ignore if it was an answer to a fascist provocation. Did you know that Largo Caballero (you quoted him) worked with Primo de Rivera (other Spanish dictator)?... Wasn't he an non-democratic person?

I'm not a teenager at all, but I'm absolutely umpolite with those who only repeat fascist topics knowing nothing what they are talking about. If you wanna think I'm unmature, ok, think what you please if that makes you feel you're right. Lee un poquito y luego me cuentas, que seguramente tenga yo más años que tú ;) Lo que seguro que sí es verdad es que no hablo por hablar ni repito justificaciones inventadas sin saber si son verdad o visiones interesadas y manipuladas.

Ahul.