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quirk
03-27-2008, 10:34 PM
An Address to the Sarat Academy in London

on 30 April 1999

by Bill Bland.

I am grateful to the Sarat Academy for inviting me to speak to you on 'Stalinism'.

However, your choice of subject presented me with some difficulty, since I am a great admirer of Stalin and the word 'Stalinism' was introduced by concealed opponents of Stalin - in particular by Nikita Khrushchev - in preparation for later political attacks upon him.

Today, in fact, 'Stalinism' has become a meaningless term of abuse employed to denote political views with which one disagrees. The Conservative press sometimes even describes Tony Blair as a 'Stalinist' -- giving Stalin, were he still alive, ample grounds for a libel action!

Stalin always referred to himself modestly as 'a pupil of Lenin' and I shall follow his example and interpret the subject of 'Stalinism' as 'Marxism-Leninism.

Perhaps the nearest figure to Stalin in British history is Richard the Third, whom everybody 'knows' - and I put the word 'knows' in inverted commas - from their school history books and Shakespeare to have been a cruel, deformed monster who murdered the little princes in the Tower.

It is only comparatively recently that serious historians have begun to realise that the commonly accepted portrayal of Richard was drawn by his Tudor successors, who had seized the throne from him and killed him.

Naturally, they then proceeded to rewrite the chronicles to justify their usurpation of the throne - even altering his portraits to present him as physically deformed, as a physical as well as a moral monster. In other words, the picture of Richard which has become generally accepted today was the result not of historical truth, but of the propaganda of his political opponents.

It is, therefore, legitimate to ask: is the picture of Stalin presented to us by so-called 'Kremlinologists' historical fact or mere propaganda?

The 'Union of Socialist Soviet Republics' (the Soviet Union), which was constructed under the leadership of Lenin and Stalin, no longer exists. Is it therefore true to say - as many people do - that this means that socialism in the Soviet Union failed?

I intend to quote here only one set of statistics. Tn his report to the 17th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in January 1939, Stalin cited figures from Western sources on the growth of industrial output in various countries as compared with 1913. These figures were:

Germany: —24.6%
Britain: —14.8%
USA: +10.2%
USSR: +291.9%

Indeed, it is an undisputed fact under the centrally planned economy instituted under Stalin, Russia was transformed in a few decades from a backward agrarian country into an advanced industrial country which by 1941— 45 had become powerful enough to defeat a German aggression able to draw upon the resources of the whole of Western Europe.

It is common to hear Stalin described as a 'dictator'.

The strongly anti-Soviet American writer Eugene Lyons once asked Stalin directly: 'Are you a dictator?' Lyons goes on (and I quote: )

'Stalin smiled, implying that the question was on the preposterous side.

"No", he said slowly, "I am no dictator. Those who use the word do not understand the Soviet system of government and the methods of the Communist Party. No one man or group of men can dictate. Decisions are made by the Party". '

The British Fabian economists Sidney and Beatrice Webb, in their comprehensive book 'Soviet Communism: A New Civilisation' categorically reject the notion of Stalin as a dictator. They say (and I quote):

"Stalin . . . has not even the extensive power . . . which the American Constitution entrusts for four years to every successive president. .

The Communist Party in the USSR has adopted its own organisation.

In this pattern individual dictatorship has no place. Personal decisions are distrusted and elaborately guarded against",

Certainly, in the time of Lenin and Stalin the Soviet regime was officially described as one of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. But this does not imply personal dictatorship. It means simply that political power is in the hands of working people, and that political activity aimed at taking political power away from the working people is illegal.

Of course, this latter is regarded in official circles in London and Washington as 'undemocratic' and 'a grave violation of human rights'

But the word 'democracy' means 'the rule of the common people', and in this sense- the Soviet -Union in Stalin's time was infinitely more democratic than any Western country.

As for 'human rights', the United Nations Human Rights Convention of 1966 lays down that states should guarantee to their citizens the 'right to work'.

But only in a socialist society can this right be put into effect, can unemployment be abolished (as it was in the Soviet Union in Stalin's time). A capitalist society requires what Marx called 'a reserve army of labour ' so that it can make labour readily available in times of boom.

Thus, for a socialist country to ban political activity aimed at the restoration of capitalism is fully in accord with the UN Convention on Human Rights.

In fact, talk about human rights is in most cases merely a propaganda weapon directed against socialism. In the eyes of Lombard Street and Wall Street, a corrupt central American 'banana republic' which sends out nightly death squads to murder homeless children in order to keep the streets tidy for the tourist trade counts as a 'free country' as long as it allows freedom of investment.

The Soviet traitors to socialism opened their attack upon socialism in 1956 at the 20th Congress of the Communist Party in February 1956 by charging Stalin with organising a 'cult of personality' around himself.

Certainly, there was a cult of Stalin's personality in the Soviet Union in the time of Stalin. But this was organised not by Stalin, but against his wishes. In fact, Stalin himself opposed and ridiculed this cult.

For example, when in February 1938 someone wanted to publish a book entitled 'Stories of the Childhood of Stalin', Stalin wrote typically:

"I am absolutely against the publication of 'Stories of the Childhood of Stalin'.

The book abounds with a mass of inexactitudes of fact, . . . of exaggerations and of unmerited praise. .

But… the important thing resides in the tendency to engrave on the minds of Soviet children (and people in general) the personality cult of leaders, of infallible heroes. This is dangerous and detrimental…I suggest we burn this book".

There was indeed a 'cult of personality' around Stalin. A leading communist cried at the 18th Congress of the Party in March 1939:

"The Ukrainian people proclaim with all their heart and soul, 'Long live our beloved Stalin!' .

Long live the towering genius of all humanity, . . . our beloved Comrade Stalin!"

The speaker was Nikita Khrushchev!

It was Khrushchev too who coined the term 'Stalinism' and began to call Stalin 'Vozhd" - the Russian equivalent of the German 'Fuhrer', Leader.

In other words, the 'cult of personality' around Stalin was built up not by Stalin and those who genuinely supported him, but by his political opponents as a prelude to attacking him later as a megalomaniac dictator.

Even though Stalin did not have the power to stop these alleged manifestations of 'loyalty' and 'patriotism', Stalin was no fool and was aware that their motives were, as he told the German writer Lion Feuchtwanger in 1937, 'to discredit him' at a later date.

Thus, the cult of personality around Stalin was contrary to Stalin's own wishes, and the fact that it went on demonstrates that in the last few years of his life Stalin - far from wielding dictatorial power - was in a minority within the Soviet leadership.

This explains many strange facts:

For example,

that after 1927 Stalin ceased to be active in the Communist International;

that Stalin's works, although incomplete, ceased to be published in the Soviet Union in 1949, three years before his death;

that, in breach of long-standing practice, Stalin - although General Secretary of the Party and in good health - failed to present the report at the 19th Party Congress in 1952.

Let me return to the question of the alleged 'failure of socialism'.

In an effort to prevent the building of socialism, in 1918 the new state was attacked by the armed forces of Britain, France, Poland and Japan. But despite the fact that the new Soviet state possessed at the outset neither an organised army nor experienced military men, the five-year War of Intervention ended in victory for the Soviets.

The opponents of socialism learned an important lesson from their defeat, namely, that socialism was most unlikely to be destroyed by direct offensive, but only from within, that is, by agents posing as socialists, working hard within the Communist Party so as to achieve positions of influence and then, in the name of 'modernising' socialism, using this influence to divert the Party along political lines which would undermine socialism and gradually forfeit the support of working people for the Party.

It is a programme which Marxists call revisionism, because while revising Marxism in significantly harmful ways, it claims to be merely modernising it.

Khrushchev became leader of the Soviet Communist Party shortly after Stalin's death in 1953. But it was not until 1956, three years later, that he felt it safe openly to attack Stalin - and then only in a secret speech which was never published in the Soviet Union until many decades later.

The attack upon Stalin was a necessary prelude to an attack upon, and a change to, the programme for building socialism put forward by Stalin.

One of the charges often levelled against Stalin is that while he was General Secretary of the Party many innocent people were falsely imprisoned for counter-revolutionary criminal offences. This allegation, unlike most of the others, is true. Between 1934 and 1938 the post of People's Commissar for Internal Affairs - in charge of the security police - was held successively by Genrikh Yagoda and Nikolai Yezhov. At Yagoda's public trial in 1938, he described to the court how he had used his authority to serve the conspiracy by protecting his fellow—conspirators from arrest, but arresting loyal communists on false charges.

It was Stalin who, suspecting something was terribly wrong, got his personal secretariat under Aleksandr Poskrebyshev to investigate what was going on in the security police.

It was as a result of these investigations that Yagoda and Yezhov were dismissed and arrested, that all cases of alleged political crimes were reinvestigated and thousands of miscarriages of justice were corrected.

It was more than anything this situation which led to the production of whole libraries of books accusing Stalin of responsibility for mass murder.

With every edition of such books as Robert Conquest's 'The Great Terror', his estimate of Stalin's 'victims' went up by several million to become farcical. When, after the counter—revolution had been completed, Boris Yeltsin published official figures of Soviet prisoners, they turned out to be less than in the United States, and the world press was strangely silent.

It was to Leonid Brezhnev - who succeeded Khrushchev as Party General Secretary in 1964 - that the dishonour fell of beginning the actual dismantling of socialism. Under Brezhnev's 'economic reforms', carried out under the cloak of 'decentralisation', moves were made to replace centralised planning, which is one of the bases of socialism, by the regulation of production by the profit motive, which is one of the bases of capitalism.

From this time on, it was all downhill.

What was abolished, along with the Soviet Union, in 1991 virtually without opposition, was not socialism, but a particularly corrupt and undemocratic form of capitalism.

Today, thanks to phoney communists like Khrushchev, Breznhnev and Gorbachev, the once united Soviet Union has split into a number of rival principalities, often at war with each other in spite of being bankrupt.

But, we are told, the people of the former Soviet Union are now 'free'.

free to be unemployed; if they are lucky enough to have a job, free to go months without wages because their employer's bank has gone into liquidation;

free to buy Rolls-Royce cars if they happen to be Mafia millionaires;

free to drink polluted water;

free to be mugged in any side street for the equivalent of a few pennies.

It should be no surprise that in Russian newsreels today we see demonstrators carrying portraits of Stalin! For to the demonstrators the picture of Stalin symbolises the socialism of which they have, temporarily, been deprived.

If, therefore, people call me a 'Stalinist' - as they sometimes do - I regard this as a compliment, even though an undeserved one.

I honour Stalin as a great progressive figure who struggled all his life for the ending of the capitalist and imperialist system which is the cause each year of the misery and death of countless millions of men, women and children, especially in the neo-colonial world.

I honour Stalin as one who struggled all his life for the greatest cause in the world - the liberation of mankind.


http://www.oneparty.co.uk/index.html?http%3A//www.oneparty.co.uk/html/stalin.html

quirk
03-27-2008, 10:34 PM
What are peoples opinions of Stalin?

donquixote99
03-27-2008, 11:09 PM
Let me answer your question with a question: do you believe that in January 1953 a plot was uncovered in Moscow involving nine Jewish doctors who sought to murder Soviet leaders including Stalin, and that these conspirators had0 succeeded in murdering Politboro member Andrei Zhdanov in 1948 and Red Army administrator Alexander Scherbakov in 1945?


Ref: Howard Fast, Being Red, p.322.

Enver
03-28-2008, 12:04 AM
What are peoples opinions of Stalin?

Not anywhere near as bad as he's portrayed in the West, but still not the best I have to say. Mao Tse Tung described Stalin as "30% bad and 70% good"; I personally think 40 – 60 might be a more accurate ratio.

quirk
03-28-2008, 12:06 AM
Not anywhere near as bad as he's portrayed in the West, but still not the best I have to say. Mao Tse Tung described Stalin as "30% bad and 70% good"; I personally think 40 – 60 might be a more accurate ratio.

I agree with what you are saying. Its hard to even begin to get a proper understanding however when there is so much lies about him.

Enver
03-28-2008, 12:13 AM
Its hard to even begin to get a proper understanding however when there is so much lies about him.

True.

Gareth
03-28-2008, 10:21 AM
What are peoples opinions of Stalin?

burnt down churches, synagogues, and mosques.

Why can't being left not mean anti-religion? It's the main reason why I can't be leftist in light of it. And surely being left shouldn't mean liberal in morality? hm.

donquixote99
03-28-2008, 11:14 AM
....but still not the best I have to say.

Classic example of praising with faint damns. :)

Enver
03-28-2008, 02:20 PM
Classic example of praising with faint damns. :)

No, I'm very critical of Stalin.

Oregon Elephant
03-28-2008, 03:34 PM
What are peoples opinions of Stalin?

Considering that I like Trotsky a lot better, and their relationship wasn't exactly smooth. And seeing as Lenin feared what would happen should Stalin take power, I don't care for him too much.

Enver
03-28-2008, 05:10 PM
Considering that I like Trotsky a lot better, and their relationship wasn't exactly smooth. And seeing as Lenin feared what would happen should Stalin take power, I don't care for him too much.

Trotsky was just as ruthless and authoritarian.

Oregon Elephant
03-28-2008, 05:51 PM
Trotsky was just as ruthless and authoritarian.

Trotsky and Stalin had greatly differing ideas about the DoP and democracy and the powers of a single individual at the top of a nation. Which is why he was assassinated by the soviets under Stalin in Mexico.

quirk
03-28-2008, 09:23 PM
Let me answer your question with a question: do you believe that in January 1953 a plot was uncovered in Moscow involving nine Jewish doctors who sought to murder Soviet leaders including Stalin, and that these conspirators had0 succeeded in murdering Politboro member Andrei Zhdanov in 1948 and Red Army administrator Alexander Scherbakov in 1945?


Ref: Howard Fast, Being Red, p.322.

I don't know a great deal about this particular plot however if there was wrong doing on the part of the Soviet authorities (which you seem to be suggesting I think) then why should this just rest on the head of Stalin. I will study this event a little more closely. I do think however that Judaism was nothing to do with it as some of the doctors where not Jews. What is your opinion of it? Do you not agree that there was actual plots against the Soviet leadership and Stalin?

When judging the last question take into account that it has recently been claimed that the Soviet archives suggest that Stalin was in fact poisoned and did not die of natural causes, something which does not suprise me in the least. {SOURCE} (http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/16693_Stalin.html)

Enver
03-28-2008, 09:32 PM
I don't know a great deal about this particular plot however if there was wrong doing on the part of the Soviet authorities (which you seem to be suggesting I think) then why should this just rest on the head of Stalin. I will study this event a little more closely. I do think however that Judaism was nothing to do with it as some of the doctors where not Jews. What is your opinion of it? Do you not agree that there was actual plots against the Soviet leadership and Stalin?

When judging the last question take into account that it has recently been claimed that the Soviet archives suggest that Stalin was in fact poisoned and did not die of natural causes, something which does not suprise me in the least. {SOURCE} (http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/16693_Stalin.html)

It's also believed that Beria was murdered.

Mono Tejano
03-28-2008, 10:33 PM
Why I'm not a fan of 'Uncle Joe':

Stalin the gangster:

Stalin, along with his sidekick "Kamo", organized a Marxist street gang which soon ran a protection racket in the workers' districts of Tblisi.

Stalin the double agent:

A number of historians believe that Stalin was a double agent for the Okhrana. Edward Ellis Smith argues this by citing Stalin's suspicious ability to escape from Okhrana dragnets, travel unimpeded, and rabble-rouse full time with no apparent source of income. One such example was the raid that occurred on the night of March 21-22 1901, when most everyone of importance in the socialist-democratic movement in Tbilisi was arrested, except for Stalin.

Stalin the pedophile:

In 1913, Stalin was sent into penal exile for a third time. This time he did not escape so quickly, and lived for the next four years in a small hamlet on the Yenisei River. While there he began a 2-year affair with Lidia Pereprygina, then aged 13, with whom he fathered two children.

Stalin betrays his own nation:

Stalin played a decisive role in engineering the 1921 Red Army invasion of Georgia following which he adopted particularly hardline, centralist policies towards Soviet Georgia, which included severe repression of all opposition within the local Communist party, not to mention any manifestations of anti-Sovietism.

Stalin double deals:
An important feature of Stalin’s rise to power is the way that he manipulated his opponents and played them off against each other. Stalin formed a "troika" of himself, Zinoviev, and Kamenev against Trotsky. When Trotsky had been eliminated, Stalin then joined Bukharin and Rykov against Zinoviev and Kamenev, emphasising their vote against the insurrection in 1917. Zinoviev and Kamenev then turned to Lenin's widow, Krupskaya; they formed the "United Opposition" in July 1926. In 1927 during the 15th Party Congress Trotsky and Zinoviev were expelled from the party and Kamenev lost his seat on the Central Committee. Stalin soon turned against the "Right Opposition", represented by his erstwhile allies, Bukharin and Rykov.

Stalin the spy:

Stalin vastly increased the scope and power of the state's secret police and intelligence agencies. Under his guiding hand, Soviet intelligence forces began to set up intelligence networks in most of the major nations of the world, including Germany, Great Britain, France, Japan, and the United States. Stalin saw no difference between espionage, communist political propaganda actions, and state-sanctioned violence, and he began to integrate all of these activities within the NKVD. Stalin made considerable use of the Communist International movement in order to infiltrate agents and to ensure that foreign Communist parties remained pro-Soviet and pro-Stalin.
One of the best early examples of Stalin's ability to integrate secret police and foreign espionage came in 1940, when he gave approval to the secret police to have Leon Trotsky assassinated in Mexico.

Stalin and the Kulaks:

Stalin's government financed industrialization both by restraining consumption on the part of ordinary Soviet citizens to ensure that capital went for re-investment into industry, and by ruthless extraction of wealth from the kulaks.

Stalin’s economy:

In 1933 workers' real earnings sank to about one-tenth of the 1926 level.

Stalin and collectivization (part 1):

Stalin's regime moved to force collectivization of agriculture. This was intended to increase agricultural output from large-scale mechanized farms, to bring the peasantry under more direct political control, and to make tax collection more efficient. Collectivization meant drastic social changes, on a scale not seen since the abolition of serfdom in 1861, and alienation from control of the land and its produce. Collectivization also meant a drastic drop in living standards for many peasants, and it faced violent reaction among the peasantry.

Stalin and famine:

According to Alan Bullock, "the total Soviet grain crop was no worse than that of 1931 … it was not a crop failure but the excessive demands of the state, ruthlessly enforced, that cost the lives of as many as five million Ukrainian peasants." Stalin refused to release large grain reserves that could have alleviated the famine, while continuing to export grain; he was convinced that the Ukrainian peasants had hidden grain away, and strictly enforced draconian new collective-farm theft laws in response.

Stalin and collectivization (part 2):

Soviet and other historians have argued that the rapid collectivization of agriculture was necessary in order to achieve an equally rapid industrialization of the Soviet Union and ultimately win World War II. This is disputed by other historians; Alec Nove claims that the Soviet Union industrialized in spite of, rather than because of, its collectivized agriculture.

Stalin and the church:

Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[51][52] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time.

Stalin and the purges:

Stalin, as head of the Politburo, consolidated near-absolute power in the 1930s with a Great Purge of the party, justified as an attempt to expel 'opportunists' and 'counter-revolutionary infiltrators'. Those targeted by the purge were often expelled from the party, however more severe measures ranged from banishment to the Gulag labor camps, to execution after trials held by NKVD troikas.

Stalin and Holodomor:

KGB documents located in Kiev purportedly demonstrate how the Ukrainian famine (Holodomor) (1932–1933) was artificially engineered,[55] and that while some areas of the Soviet Union affected by the famine were sent humanitarian aid, Ukraine was systematically denied such assistance.[56] Also, the famine was accompanied by a devastating purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia and the Ukrainian Communist party itself.[57] One document is an order from Moscow to shoot people who steal food. It is signed by Stalin in red ink.[55] According to Professor Donald Rayfield, within a year 6,000 had been executed and tens of thousands imprisoned.[58]
Most modern scholars agree that the famine was caused by the policies of the government of the Soviet Union under Stalin, rather than by natural reasons

Stalin and deportation:

During Stalin's rule the following ethnic groups were deported completely or partially: Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia. Deportations took place in appalling conditions, often by cattle truck, and hundreds of thousands of deportees died en route.[67] Those who survived were forced to work without pay in the labour camps. Many of the deportees died of hunger or other conditions.


Source: Wikipedia (among others)


... and this is all BEFORE the beginning of WWII and the murder of millions more 'soviet' citizens.

BlackBaron
04-20-2008, 01:37 PM
Trotsky was just as ruthless and authoritarian.

Trotsky was MORE ruthless and authoritarian.

Ever heard of the militarization of labour?

Vox Populi
04-20-2008, 08:50 PM
Why I'm not a fan of 'Uncle Joe':
Cut and paste is no substitute for real debate.

Oregon Elephant
04-21-2008, 03:34 PM
Cut and paste is no substitute for real debate.

But it sure beats one liners.

Vox Populi
04-21-2008, 03:43 PM
But it sure beats one liners.Ok.

Jabato
04-21-2008, 03:51 PM
Stalin was simply a murdered IMO.
When Hitler began to kill jews we had lost count about the number killed by Stalin and his ferocious NKVD.
We still don't know how mnay were killed, but more or less, between 30 and 40 million people?

There are some letters written by Lenin where he talked about Stalin:
"Comrade Stalin, having become Secretary-General, has unlimited authority
concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be
capable of using that authority with sufficient caution"
Not a nice man at all.

Saludos

BlackBaron
04-21-2008, 06:10 PM
Not a nice man at all.

Saludos

Indeed.

But do you know that are psuedo-Orthodox psychos who in the Neo-Soviet dictatorship of Putin write Icons of him and call him a Saint and Martyr who was killed by evil jews because he was going to wipe out Freemasonary once and for all in Russia? Do you know they claim that he had been ANNOINTED as an Orthodox Autocrat? The greatest butcher of Christians the world has ever seen!

We live in insane times. Modern National Bholsevikism is as la-la-la as the spaced out anglo-Irish sipping port at the Theosophical society Lodge.

Jabato
04-22-2008, 07:54 AM
Indeed.

But do you know that are psuedo-Orthodox psychos who in the Neo-Soviet dictatorship of Putin write Icons of him and call him a Saint and Martyr who was killed by evil jews because he was going to wipe out Freemasonary once and for all in Russia? Do you know they claim that he had been ANNOINTED as an Orthodox Autocrat? The greatest butcher of Christians the world has ever seen!


I agree with you BlackBaron. The fact is that socialisms/comunisms use of the propaganda is superb. Lenin used to say that lies were a political weapon. And for sure Hitler has got a worse public image than Stalin, even when "working" as a butcher Stalin did a "better" job. I mean Hitler is ultra/mega bad and if Stalin did kill so many is because there was a reason to do it.

Saludos

Vox Populi
04-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Here's something I found on the Stalin Yahoo Group.

In 1926 the population of the USSR was 147 million. In 1939 it was 170.5
million. In 1940 this figure increased to 194.1 million with the newly annexed
territories (e.g. the Baltic States, Moldavia etc.). In 1950 the population
(still including these territories) was 178 million.

So in the years (between 1926 and 1939) when Stalin was allegedly murdering
tens of millions the population of the Soviet Union increased by over 23
million-even according to the bourgeoisie. 5 years after the war the population of
the Soviet Union was 18 million below the pre-war total.

I first saw these figures when I was a libertarian anti-'Stalinist' (and
indeed anti-Leninist) . I realised almost immediately that I had been completely
wrong about Stalin. How could it be possible to make Stalin the equivalent
of Hitler as the bourgeoisie (and myself) had done? Look at the devastation
Hitler had wrought on the country. Whatever mistakes people might have
accused Stalin of they paled into comparison with what Hitler had done to the
country. Moreover, when people had died as a result of Stalin's policies-during
the collectivisation drive and the 'purges', they had died as part of a
desperate attempt to make the country strong enough to resist imperialist attack-an attack that would lead to the most hideous suffering and destruction that any nation had endured since ancient times.

The twenty three million figure also makes me deeply suspicious even about
the figures presented by Wheatcroft and the others about the famine of the
1930s. I've no doubt it was a horrible famine but I really don't believe that a
death toll of 5-6 million is compatible with such a high populaton growth
(famines don't just reduce the population by the numbers who die but affect the
population through plummeting fertility rates in the run-up to the famine and
in the famine years themselves).

The population statistics are derived from League of Nations figures and
Soviet figures from the 80's accepted as genuine by bourgeois scholars. They can be found in a number of secondary sources e.g. Geoffrey Hosking's 'A History of the Soviet Union'.

Jabato
04-22-2008, 10:38 AM
Hre's something I found here: http://www.johndclare.net/Russ12.htm

Stalin’s Terror
Summary
The most famous aspect of Stalin's Russia was the Terror. This grew from his paranoia and his desire to be absolute autocrat, and was enforced via the NKVD and public 'show trials'. It developed into a centrally-enforced 'cult of Stalin-worship', and a terrifying system of labour camps - 'the gulag'.

3. The Great Purges, 1934–39
Political Opponents
1934: Kirov, a rival to Stalin, was murdered. Although he probably ordered the assassination, Stalin used it as a chance to arrest thousands of his opponents.

1934–1939, Stalin’s political opponents were put on ‘Show trials’, where they pleaded guilty to impossible charges of treason (e.g. Zinoviev and Kamenev 1936/ Bukharin, Tomsky & Rykov 1938).

The Army
In 1937, the Commander-in-Chief of the Red Army and 7 leading generals were shot. In 1938–39, all the admirals and half the Army’s officers were executed or imprisoned.

The Church
Religious leaders imprisoned; churches closed down.

Ethnic groups
Stalin enforced ‘Russification’ of all the Soviet Union.

Ordinary people
Were denounced/ arrested/ sent to the Gulag (the system of labour camps). 20 million Russians were sent to the camps, where perhaps half of them died. People lived in fear. ‘Apparatchiks’ (party members loyal to Stalin) got all the new flats, jobs, holidays etc.


Saludos

BlackBaron
04-22-2008, 11:05 AM
I agree with you BlackBaron. The fact is that socialisms/comunisms use of the propaganda is superb. Lenin used to say that lies were a political weapon. And for sure Hitler has got a worse public image than Stalin, even when "working" as a butcher Stalin did a "better" job. I mean Hitler is ultra/mega bad and if Stalin did kill so many is because there was a reason to do it.

Saludos

The sending people to the gulag after WWII because he didnt want people seeing cripples in the "Workers Paradise" was probably the sickest thing he did.

I think it is because people see the Marxist's intentions are more honourable than that of the the Nazies though they both are based on the same Darwinist ideas that they tend to let them of the hook more.

Of course the Old Christian Order has to be judged by its actual realities rather than its ideals unlike Marxism...

quirk
04-22-2008, 11:11 AM
Neither ideology is linked to Darwinism in any way.

BlackBaron
04-22-2008, 11:20 AM
Neither ideology is linked to Darwinism in any way.

Both see the world as a struggle from which new and better forms of existence emerge.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1912/marxism-darwinism.htm

Jabato
04-22-2008, 11:35 AM
BlackBaron wrote:
I think it is because people see the Marxist's intentions are more honourable than that of the the Nazies though they both are based on the same Darwinist ideas that they tend to let them of the hook more.

This is it BB!.
Lefties believe they're one step over the rest in legitimacy terms. If the killer is a righty, he is the mother and father of all evil. If the killer is a lefty -Stalin is the best example- "for sure there was a reason that justify the killings"
In Spain lefties also believe that they are the only one allowed to state if you're a democrat or a ultra/mega fascist. If you agree with them, you're OK, you're a democratic person; if you disagree....you have to be beheaded because you're a fascist.

Saludos

Vox Populi
04-23-2008, 06:34 AM
Hre's something I found here: http://www.johndclare.net/Russ12.htm

Stalin’s Terror
Summary
The most famous aspect of Stalin's Russia was the Terror. This grew from his paranoia and his desire to be absolute autocrat, and was enforced via the NKVD and public 'show trials'. It developed into a centrally-enforced 'cult of Stalin-worship', and a terrifying system of labour camps - 'the gulag'.

3. The Great Purges, 1934–39
Political Opponents
1934: Kirov, a rival to Stalin, was murdered. Although he probably ordered the assassination, Stalin used it as a chance to arrest thousands of his opponents.

1934–1939, Stalin’s political opponents were put on ‘Show trials’, where they pleaded guilty to impossible charges of treason (e.g. Zinoviev and Kamenev 1936/ Bukharin, Tomsky & Rykov 1938).

The Army
In 1937, the Commander-in-Chief of the Red Army and 7 leading generals were shot. In 1938–39, all the admirals and half the Army’s officers were executed or imprisoned.

The Church
Religious leaders imprisoned; churches closed down.

Ethnic groups
Stalin enforced ‘Russification’ of all the Soviet Union.

Ordinary people
Were denounced/ arrested/ sent to the Gulag (the system of labour camps). 20 million Russians were sent to the camps, where perhaps half of them died. People lived in fear. ‘Apparatchiks’ (party members loyal to Stalin) got all the new flats, jobs, holidays etc.


Saludos
There's no evidence Stalin killed Sergei Kirov. None at all. In fact, the evidence would point to the Trotskyite terrorist center that operated within the Soviet Union.

The army was purged on the eve of war owing to a plot to murder Stalin coming again, from the Trotskyite terrorist center in collaboration with the Germans.

All churches were not closed, many Russian orthodox priests attended Stalin's funeral

Stalin was not Russian himself.

The figures quoted here are contradicted entirely not only by the Russian archives, but by the post which proceeds it. They are cold war propaganda that are no longer taken serious by academics whos speciality is the Soviet Union.

Jabato
04-23-2008, 08:20 AM
The figures quoted here are contradicted entirely not only by the Russian archives, but by the post which proceeds it. They are cold war propaganda that are no longer taken serious by academics whos speciality is the Soviet Union.

Hi Vox Populi!

But it seems that the only valid figures are the one giving by Russia or by some forumites' post. I mean, if this is "cold war" propaganda, your figures might be "communist propaganda" too.

I believe there are specialists on both sides, so it is a matter of ideas and points of view confrontation.

Saludos

quirk
04-23-2008, 10:15 AM
Hi Vox Populi!

But it seems that the only valid figures are the one giving by Russia or by some forumites' post. I mean, if this is "cold war" propaganda, your figures might be "communist propaganda" too.

I believe there are specialists on both sides, so it is a matter of ideas and points of view confrontation.

Saludos


Well present the primary evidence to back the figures that you have provided. The same people who initially came up with such figures always claimed that when the Soviet archives where opened it would support their claims. When they where opened all these people suddenly went quiet about the archives. Wonder why?

Jabato
04-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Well present the primary evidence to back the figures that you have provided. The same people who initially came up with such figures always claimed that when the Soviet archives where opened it would support their claims. When they where opened all these people suddenly went quiet about the archives. Wonder why?

Hi Quirk!

I don't want to back the figures I have provided because it would be an endless task and because I have no time to do it.

But for sure there is a lot of information regarding Stalin in the net.

But I do not want to hear onece again that part of the info that say Stalin was a nice man, because that's the version I always believed.

I don't want to know about Franco's dictatorship lefty version, because I've grown up with that version in my life. I don't know if you get what I mean.

I'm interesting in the opinion of those who give a different version of the same facts.

Saludos

quirk
05-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Hi Quirk!

I don't want to back the figures I have provided because it would be an endless task and because I have no time to do it.

But for sure there is a lot of information regarding Stalin in the net.

But I do not want to hear onece again that part of the info that say Stalin was a nice man, because that's the version I always believed.

I don't want to know about Franco's dictatorship lefty version, because I've grown up with that version in my life. I don't know if you get what I mean.

I'm interesting in the opinion of those who give a different version of the same facts.

Saludos

So you are saying that you have made up your mind and dont want to hear any arguments from the other side?