Abortion - your view

[quirk]

What is your opinion on abortion?

Its the one subject I don't really have an opinion on (or do but keep changing). I have went from pro life to pro choice and now I am kind of back at pro life.

I know this is an emotional subject but lets try to have a reasonable and detailed debate about it.

[Enver]

I'm Pro Choice.

I personally would not like a woman whom I had impregnated to have an abortion, but I still believe every woman should have access to free and safe abortion on demand. I also believe that abortions should be restricted to the first trimester of the pregnancy.

[quirk]

I'm Pro Choice.

I personally would not like a woman whom I had impregnated to have an abortion, but I still believe every woman should have access to free and safe abortion on demand. I also believe that abortions should be restricted to the first trimester of the pregnancy.

That's kind of how I see it. I certainly wouldnt like to see any after the first trimester. I would like to see a society however in which women where offered a viable alternative.

[An Céachta Dearg]

First and Foremost I'am pro-life

I do not accept the when life begins argument and do not take it into consideration. In my opinion it is irrelavent at which point of the pregancy life begins as at the moment of conception a cycle has been set in place that will result in life regardless(except in the case of miscarriage etc) therefore in my opinion the when life begins issue is moot.

I see abortion as murder without doubt. However I do not mind abortion when a womans life is endangered by the pregnancy or if a women hs concieved through rape or incest. However Abortion that is used as a form of contraceptive is disgusting and irresponsible. I personably believe if one is to have non-contraceptive sex then they are to accept the consequences. If the mother does not want the child then their is the option of giving the child up for adoption, there are many childless and infertile couples who would quite simply love the chance to adopt and raise the child.

On top of this abortion has been known to cause physcological defects within people who have had it. It has often led to the person suffering from depression and committing suicide and in extreme cases social exclusion. Mistakes during the operation have often left a woman infertile and in some cases has been known to cause serious life threathning infection in the uterus. Adoption on the other hand gives the option of allowing a life to blossom, bring happiness to others, no lingering guilt and achance to make contact and involvement in the childs life at some future point.

Form the UN charter for the Rights of the Child:
Article 6
1. States Parties recognize that every child has the inherent right to life.
2. States Parties shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.

Yet all the Vetoe countries have legalised abortion, Do I hear Hypocrisy?

[Enver]

First and Foremost I'am pro-choice.

I do not accept the when life begins argument and do not take it into consideration. In my opinion it is irrelavent at which point of the pregancy life begins as at the moment of conception a cycle has been set in place that will result in life regardless(except in the case of miscarriage etc) therefore in my opinion the when life begins issue is moot.

I see abortion as murder without doubt. However I do not mind abortion when a womans life is endangered by the pregnancy or if a women hs concieved through rape or incest. However Abortion that is used as a form of contraceptive is disgusting and irresponsible. I personably believe if one is to have non-contraceptive sex then they are to accept the consequences. If the mother does not want the child then their is the option of giving the child up for adoption, there are many childless and infertile couples who would quite simply love the chance to adopt and raise the child.

On top of this abortion has been known to cause physcological defects within people who have had it. It has often led to the person suffering from depression and committing suicide and in extreme cases social exclusion. Mistakes during the operation have often left a woman infertile and in some cases has been known to cause serious life threathning infection in the uterus. Adoption on the other hand gives the option of allowing a life to blossom, bring happiness to others, no lingering guilt and achance to make contact and involvement in the childs life at some future point.

You actually come across as Pro Life.

[Don melQuiades]

I'm in favour of women choosing not to abort.

[An Céachta Dearg]

You actually come across as Pro Life.

That was a mistake I meant to say pro-life sorry about that.

[bay]

I've been on both sides of the issue too. damn you can pick the subjects, quirk.

[Gareth]

Pro-Life. Again, speaking for the little guy.

57,000,000 abortions in one year worldwide is totally excessive. Abortion is like contraception in some countries.

[Viv]

What is your opinion on abortion?

Its the one subject I don't really have an opinion on (or do but keep changing). I have went from pro life to pro choice and now I am kind of back at pro life.

I know this is an emotional subject but lets try to have a reasonable and detailed debate about it.

Prolly closest to you on this, Quirk. It is against my instincts.

Having discussed it many times, I cannot be comfortable with it.

However, practically, there are many reasons to allow abortion.

I think the situation for women and for unwanted children...involves less suffering with abortion, than it did before.

There is of course the feminist aspect, that women have the right to choose and that is valid. At the end of the day, it is the woman who is usually left to be responsible for raising the child and her life is taken over by that. So women probably should have more choice in the outcome than men.

I have supported a few friends through this. It is not something I would want to go through and I do not think I could abort. But circumstances dictate the choice and it is not for others to judge.

The matter of support and counselling is very important, as women are often under emotional stress.

An artist killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, leaving a note saying: "I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum."...

Her suicide note read: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no-one else does."
The inquest at Truro City Hall heard that Miss Beck had split up with her boyfriend, referred to as "Ben" after he "reacted badly" to the pregnancy.
Artist hanged herself after aborting her twins - Telegraph

[bay]

when I was younger, I was definitely pro choice. I've changed that position as I've gotten older.

[Viv]

when I was younger, I was definitely pro choice. I've changed that position as I've gotten older.

I think that can happen. I was completely anti, but ...experiences with friends altered that view.
One friend did not even tell her husband about it...one aborted due to serious illness...various circumstances and it is not black and white.

[An Céachta Dearg]

I think that can happen. I was completely anti, but ...experiences with friends altered that view.
One friend did not even tell her husband about it...one aborted due to serious illness...various circumstances and it is not black and white.

But in cases where it is used as contraceptive Viv it is wrong. Also having one without an abortion without informing the father is disgraceful behaviour.

[Gareth]

But in cases where it is used as contraceptive Viv it is wrong. Also having one without an abortion without informing the father is disgraceful behaviour.

I'm so proud of you right now TheRedPlough, really I am :)

[Viv]

But in cases where it is used as contraceptive Viv it is wrong. Also having one without an abortion without informing the father is disgraceful behaviour.

The woman was seriously ill and in a wheelchair unable to walk. That is acceptable to me...
Her husband agree it was acceptable and then left her when she regained her health. Appears he did not accept it and never learned to, despite what he said about it at the time.
Women do make these decisions. That woman was married to the king of selfish pigs and she could not face another child to him. In the end, they split up which she had foreseen and did not wish to bring a child into that unhappy setting.
Why is it wrong to use as a contraceptive? What is the difference between abortion and the pill? The effect is the same.

[Enver]

What is the difference between abortion and the pill? The effect is the same.

Careful now Vivian, we wouldn't want to expose the hypocracy of their position, now would we?

[Viv]

Careful now Vivian, we wouldn't want to expose the hypocracy of their position, now would we?

Oh yes, yes we would...;)

[Gareth]

I don't agree with the pill, or the morning after pill either.

However killing a being with a fully formed heart is despicable. An abortion for contraception is absurd. 57 million last year. Tell me thats not wrong. That's nearly 10 times the Holocaust.

[Enver]

However killing a being with a fully formed heart is despicable.

The chicken I ate for dinner was a being with a heart.

57 million last year. Tell me thats not wrong. That's nearly 10 times the Holocaust.

That's not wrong. Phew, that wasn't so difficult.

[Gareth]

Enver: Then you have no heart at all. Removing potential life is a disgrace. In Russia they have been having more abortions than live births....

[Viv]

Enver: Then you have no heart at all. Removing potential life is a disgrace. In Russia they have been having more abortions than live births....

What is the alternative?

[Gareth]

Adoption. There are plenty of potential parents out there who wish they could have children but are infertile.

[Don melQuiades]

Adoption. There are plenty of potential parents out there who wish they could have children but are infertile.

Not really.

[Enver]

Adoption. There are plenty of potential parents out there who wish they could have children but are infertile.

Are you willing to adopt an unwanted child?

[An Céachta Dearg]

The woman was seriously ill and in a wheelchair unable to walk. That is acceptable to me...
Her husband agree it was acceptable and then left her when she regained her health. Appears he did not accept it and never learned to, despite what he said about it at the time. .

She broke his trust and murdered his unborn offspring, he probably would have accepted her decision if she had at least consulted him beforehand, the fact that she didn't is the probably the most likely reason he later left her.

Women do make these decisions. That woman was married to the king of selfish pigs and she could not face another child to him. In the end, they split up which she had foreseen and did not wish to bring a child into that unhappy setting. .

Why should a child suffer for another persons personality or behaviour, if you justify abortion on those grounds then you justiy infantcide post-relatuionship breakup. They are also in that unhappy situation.

Why is it wrong to use as a contraceptive? What is the difference between abortion and the pill? The effect is the same.


Because the pill prevents the fertilisation of the egg, abortion kills the fertilised egg and therefore a human that has 26 chromosones in every cell just like you and just like me. A condom and a pill prevent two 23 chromosoal cells from fertilising.

[Enver]

Because the pill prevents the fertilisation of the egg, abortion kills the fertilised egg and therefore a human that has 26 chromosones in every cell just like you and just like me. A condom and a pill prevent two 23 chromosoal cells from fertilising.

A fertilised egg is not a human being.

[Gareth]

Are you willing to adopt an unwanted child?

If I had a wife and if we were in a position to do this I'd consider it.

[Don melQuiades]

If I had a wife and if we were in a position to do this I'd consider it.

That's funny, lots of people say the same thing about not aborting.

[Gareth]

The mothers role is crucial in a family situation. I would feel like I would be an inadequate father if I let a child grow up without a mother.

Whereas abortion is the destruction of life. There are people who are willing to adopt children, plenty of them. However you have established disbelief at that.

[An Céachta Dearg]

The mothers role is crucial in a family situation. I would feel like I would be an inadequate father if I let a child grow up without a mother.

Whereas abortion is the destruction of life. There are people who are willing to adopt children, plenty of them. However you have established disbelief at that.

Define what you mean by the "mothers role"

The mothers role is a socially contrustuced one it is not innate.

[Gareth]

I still think life without a mother can be difficult for a child to live with, and mothers do have a function within the family unit. Fathers also have a function. This is also the way it has been naturally intended.

[An Céachta Dearg]

I still think life without a mother can be difficult for a child to live with, and mothers do have a function within the family unit. Fathers also have a function. This is also the way it has been naturally intended.

You speak of masculinity and femininity. Gareth they are not annate they do not exist naturally but are socially constructed roles and patterns of behaviour. Yes mothers do have a function one that has been invented trough society. You cannot say that it has been naturally intended.

[Don melQuiades]

You speak of masculinity and femininity. Gareth they are not annate they do not exist naturally but are socially constructed roles and patterns of behaviour. Yes mothers do have a function one that has been invented trough society. You cannot say that it has been naturally intended.

That's not really true. There are definite biological predispositions.

[Gareth]

I disagree with you TheRedPlough, mothers and fathers are there to reproduce and then to lead their families. I'm not saying that the mother and the father always have seperate roles that's not true. Children often experience a sense of not belonging if they do not have 2 parents or do not belong to a traditional unit by their peers talking about what their mummy and daddy do. It has an impact, this is why I feel it is dangerous to tinker with the traditional family unit. However I have known people from incomplete family units even in a homosexual family unit. I'm still hesitant to encourage deviation from the regular family unit which has served society for years.

[An Céachta Dearg]

"gender refers to those behaviours which define individuals as male or female in a particular cultural context. Within western cultures it is generally assumed that differences in behaviour correspond with bodily differences with bodily differences which provide the material substartum for the elaboration of gender; this correspondance, however, is not necessarily present. It is also assumed that there are only two genders, an assumption that is not universally valid and which poss problems for those who are born with genitalia that ae not easily categorised as female or male."

- Charles, Nicki,Sociology: The Key Concepts 2006

Gender is completely different from Sex. Sex is natural or innate. I.E you are born and defined your sex in accordance to your genitalia. However Gender is as I have said a socially constructed concept, created in human society and one that has created inequality among the sexes. Men are not the ominant force in all societies tradtionally they are only so in European and Asian societies and societies that are descended from such.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0BwleH5n5eY

[Gareth]

Any sociologist could suggest such however I would disagree.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Any sociologist could suggest such however I would disagree.

Its not suggestion its accepted social theory formed by many studies into human history and human nature, also by reviewing different types of human society throughout the world. Sociology is a science its findings are 95% reliable.

Bac to the point I would accept an opinion as such from C.Wright Mills or Anthony Giddens far quicker than I would accept it from some semi-literate people who were writing 2000 years ago.

[flax]

First and Foremost I'am pro-life

I do not accept the when life begins argument and do not take it into consideration. In my opinion it is irrelavent at which point of the pregancy life begins as at the moment of conception a cycle has been set in place that will result in life regardless(except in the case of miscarriage etc) therefore in my opinion the when life begins issue is moot.

I see abortion as murder without doubt. However I do not mind abortion when a womans life is endangered by the pregnancy or if a women hs concieved through rape or incest.



Two things.

1. Moot hmm youre just saying its life as soon as there are a full set of chromosones, just want to point out that you have drawn your line at one place some ppl might draw it at another place.

2. Why would rape make murder a lesser crime ?

Flax

[An Céachta Dearg]

Two things.

1. Moot hmm youre just saying its life as soon as there are a full set of chromosones, just want to point out that you have drawn your line at one place some ppl might draw it at another place.

2. Why would rape make murder a lesser crime ?

Flax

I draw the line where I see it as correct and where it is generally accpeted that an intelligant being has come into existance.

Your point and critique of my Rape point is quite a good one but not something I did not anticipate. I believe that a child who is the result of a rape is likely to suffer strong physcological and emotional damage in the early years of His/Her life. They will come into a society that would view them in a negative light and as they are the product of a henious crime they may be shunned by that society.
I just believe that a woman in a case where she is raped should be given the choice in that respect as that is a terrible position to find oneself in, however where it is used as a contraceptive my point still stands.

[flax]

Your point and critique of my Rape point is quite a good one but not something I did not anticipate. I believe that a child who is the result of a rape is likely to suffer strong physcological and emotional damage in the early years of His/Her life. They will come into a society that would view them in a negative light and as they are the product of a henious crime they may be shunned by that society.
I just believe that a woman in a case where she is raped should be given the choice in that respect as that is a terrible position to find oneself in, however where it is used as a contraceptive my point still stands.

The point i wanted to make is that even you see it in a greyscale.
Then they debate is just where to draw the line.
I dont realy know if you realy see abortion as murder or just as VERY undesirable thing to do.
Because if you see it as murder you thats its accptable if unfortunate to murder someone if they run the risk of living an unplesant life.

I dont think you should use abortion as a contraceptive either.
But from a totaly different standpoint, as im a propontent of public healtcare and the cost of an abortions is a hell of a lot higher then a condom/pill.

But if the child is unwanted its up to the woman carrying it.

Flax.

[An Céachta Dearg]

The point i wanted to make is that even you see it in a greyscale.
Then they debate is just where to draw the line.
I dont realy know if you realy see abortion as murder or just as VERY undesirable thing to do.
Because if you see it as murder you thats its accptable if unfortunate to murder someone if they run the risk of living an unplesant life.

I dont think you should use abortion as a contraceptive either.
But from a totaly different standpoint, as im a propontent of public healtcare and the cost of an abortions is a hell of a lot higher then a condom/pill.

But if the child is unwanted its up to the woman carrying it.

Flax.

Yes I admit to seeing it as grey rather than black or white, b8ut only in exceptional cirumstances as I have already pointed out, if the child is a product of rape(which can be incestral) then it should be the womans choice to terminate it. If the womans life is endangered as a result of the pregnancy then the choice should also be available but other than that abortion should be out of the question.

If the child is unwanted the woman only has to carry it for nine months after that she can give the child up to social services so that it may be fostered or adopted

[flax]

If the child is unwanted the woman only has to carry it for nine months after that she can give the child up to social services so that it may be fostered or adopted

Why couldnt she do that i case of rape ?

Its not like the adoptive parents HAVE to know that the child is the product of a rape ?
And thus alleviating the social stigma of the rape

Flax.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Why couldnt she do that i case of rape ?

Its not like the adoptive parents HAVE to know that the child is the product of a rape ?
And thus alleviating the social stigma of the rape

Flax.

Good point,

But what if the rape was incestral?
What about the physcological damage to the biological mother?

[flax]

Good point,

But what if the rape was incestral?
What about the physcological damage to the biological mother?

My point exactly, sometimes playing the devils advocate works :)

The whole issue must imho be seen from the mothers standpoint.
Carrying an unwanted child for 9 months no mater what kind of conception can be extremly emotionaly painful.
Another issue is if you live in a country without anykind of maternety benefits
and will have trouble supporting yourself in the final months of pregnancy etc etc.

Her choise is central and not something we should put ourselfs on high horses and be moral judges over.

[Lightweaver]

I just started reading this thread and haven't read every page but thought I'd address a post on the first page. So I hope I don't repeat points someone else may have already made.

I see abortion as murder without doubt. However I do not mind abortion when a womans life is endangered by the pregnancy or if a women hs concieved through rape or incest. However Abortion that is used as a form of contraceptive is disgusting and irresponsible.

I've heard a lot of people express that opinion but never understood why, because if you believe abortion is murder, it would be murder regardless of what action caused the pregnancy. You are saying that abortion is acceptable if the woman didn't enjoy the sex due to rape, but unacceptable if she enjoyed it. This is nothing more than the old double standard.

I personably believe if one is to have non-contraceptive sex then they are to accept the consequences.

Contraceptives can fail.


On top of this abortion has been known to cause physcological defects within people who have had it. It has often led to the person suffering from depression and committing suicide and in extreme cases social exclusion.

And the same can be said of postpartum depression.

Form the UN charter for the Rights of the Child:
Article 6
1. States Parties recognize that every child has the inherent right to life.
2. States Parties shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.

Yet all the Vetoe countries have legalised abortion, Do I hear Hypocrisy?




Not if you realize that the UN Charter is about the rights of a child, not those of a fetus. If it applied to fetuses it would say fetus or embryo, not child. :)

[An Céachta Dearg]

I've heard a lot of people express that opinion but never understood why, because if you believe abortion is murder, it would be murder regardless of what action caused the pregnancy. You are saying that abortion is acceptable if the woman didn't enjoy the sex due to rape, but unacceptable if she enjoyed it. This is nothing more than the old double standard. .

It is not double standards. Rape is completly different from concessional sex. Rape is highly traumatising and highly damaging upon mental health. Having to carry the child of the purportraitor of such a crime upon your person may cause the woman great grief. Also Rape can be incestral(as to can be sex and i also propse abortion in that case)



Contraceptives can fail. .
the child should still live







Not if you realize that the UN Charter is about the rights of a child, not those of a fetus. If it applied to fetuses it would say fetus or embryo, not child.


IOt depends upon your interpretation of CHILD in my realisation is at the moment of conception(maybe its a little catholic hangover)

[Lightweaver]

It is not double standards. Rape is completly different from concessional sex. Rape is highly traumatising and highly damaging upon mental health. Having to carry the child of the purportraitor of such a crime upon your person may cause the woman great grief.

Can you not understand that carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term can also cause great grief?

It depends upon your interpretation of CHILD in my realisation is at the moment of conception(maybe its a little catholic hangover)

Yes it may be a little catholic hangover. :) I define a child as one that is already born, and I wasn't raised catholic.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Can you not understand that carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term can also cause great grief?

Yes but I can also understand that once the Child is born that grief for the most part is finished, however if an abortion is conducted then the a lingering feeling of guilt may emerge and cause depression among other mentla problems.



Yes it may be a little catholic hangover. :) I define a child as one that is already born, and I wasn't raised catholic.

Your a lucky one so, the church of Rome is to be despised !!!

[Lightweaver]

I don't despise the church of Rome; I disagree with its teachings. :)

[An Céachta Dearg]

I don't despise the church of Rome; I disagree with its teachings. :)

Take it from someone who was raised in the faith!!!

Its a haithful religion!!

[Gareth]

Take it from someone who was raised in the faith!!!

Its a haithful religion!!

Hm, I'm of the Church of Canterbury. However we should make concious efforts to work together more often.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Hm, I'm of the Church of Canterbury. However we should make concious efforts to work together more often.

ve kind of left the church behind gareth. I dont follow he teachings of the church at all now

[Viv]

Yes I admit to seeing it as grey rather than black or white, b8ut only in exceptional cirumstances as I have already pointed out, if the child is a product of rape(which can be incestral) then it should be the womans choice to terminate it. If the womans life is endangered as a result of the pregnancy then the choice should also be available but other than that abortion should be out of the question.

If the child is unwanted the woman only has to carry it for nine months after that she can give the child up to social services so that it may be fostered or adopted

Why should a woman have to carry a child she does not want for 9 months, then deliver it, then love it, then have to hand it over and break her heart after it for the rest of her life, while the child may grow up with an identity crisis due to being adopted and there is the risk it may not bond with adoptive parents.

The woman has the right to choose if she carries the child. It is her body and her choice.

[Gareth]

Identity crisis? Many children get on perfectly in adoption. Adoption is far better than killing it.

[Viv]

Identity crisis? Many children get on perfectly in adoption. Adoption is far better than killing it.

What would a man do if the responsibility were his?

[Enver]

What would a man do if the responsibility were his?

The abortion rate would spike through the roof. :D

It clearly isn't murder.

How is a clump of cells a human?

[Dreadfulfaery]

Unitl men bleed every month, get impregnated, have their body change and then give birth to a baby, they have no right to lecture us on what to do with our bodies. That might seem a litle harsh but its the truth.
Abortion is neccessary - there are enough unwanted and negleted children in this country and world without adding any more to the count.

[Phædrus]

Until we can discover the nature of conciousness, we cannot decide when a fetus becomes a thinking, feeling human being. It's some time after fertilization, but also before birth. Until we can decide when a fetus becomes a human being I have no opinion on this.

[donquixote99]

Unitl men bleed every month, get impregnated, have their body change and then give birth to a baby, they have no right to lecture us on what to do with our bodies. That might seem a litle harsh but its the truth.

Banning abortion is an attempt to impose a duty not freely assumed. I understand that many get a hard frost over it.

Abortion is neccessary - there are enough unwanted and negleted children in this country and world without adding any more to the count.

Now that is an argument that seems better to you than me. It amounts to 'better dead than possiblily unwanted and neglected.'

The sociobiology of the thing seems to me to explain attitudes well enough. The male reproduictive strategy is to take lots of shots at reproduction, and abortion threatens to cancel the whole thing out. Women on the other hand get relatively few shots, and like the option of a do-over if one of them isn't going to work well for some reason.

Something like the current compromise here is probablly as good as one can do, if one grants some say to other interested parties, besides the expectant mother. On demand first trimester; for cause in second; only for damned good cause in the third. On demand in the third seems too much like free infanticide.

[Gareth]

What would a man do if the responsibility were his?

Keep it until adoption. That's what I'd do anyway, if I didn't want it that is.

[Viv]

Keep it until adoption. That's what I'd do anyway, if I didn't want it that is.

The woman then has 9 months of her life to work through with all that emotional trauma, disruption, possible health risks, dealing with the reactions of those around her...explain that to your boss...or your friends...or...

No.

[Gareth]

The woman then has 9 months of her life to work through with all that emotional trauma, disruption, possible health risks, dealing with the reactions of those around her...explain that to your boss...or your friends...or...

No.

How does that excuse murder ever?

If I had someone putting me through emotional trauma for 9 months am I allowed to take out a handgun and shoot? I see this living thing as a human being, the same as you or me.

You could be destroying the next Mozart, or the next Leonardo da Vinci, all people have potential.

[Lightweaver]

I see this living thing as a human being, the same as you or me.
Your individual perspective doesn't give you the right to impose that perspective on another sovereign human being, in this case the pregnant woman, through legislation.

[Enver]

Your individual perspective doesn't give you the right to impose that perspective on another sovereign human being, in this case the pregnant woman, through legislation.

Well said.

[medoosa29]

when you abortion so easily at the tips of your hands, you should also know abortion itself is very traumatic. Women having to abort and later had it caused them to suicide fas a direct consequence of abortion

-Psychiatrists, social workers, and others often deal with women who have a history of abortion but do not realize that abortion is the substantive cause of the problems being presented.
-America is experiencing an increasing amount of violence by children. How much of this violence and crime can be associated to boys being reared by mothers who have had one or more abortions in their history?
(http://www.trosch.org/pas/pas.html)

And repeatedly statistics and reports say women going through abortions have a higher risks of breast cancer and ectopic pregnancy as well, And not only behavioural or emotional trauma, but also causes physical trauma to various lots of women. the abortion technique itself is very traumatic.

[Lightweaver]

when you abortion so easily at the tips of your hands, you should also know abortion itself is very traumatic. Women having to abort and later had it caused them to suicide fas a direct consequence of abortion


And as I pointed out earlier in this thread the same can be said of post-partum depression. In addition, being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term can be equally traumatic.

[medoosa29]

So even the 9th unwanted pregnancy should be aborted, ok, but, whose going to face the consequences of having her cervix very weak as to when she really wants a child, it no longer holds, what do you expect then?

im not saying unwanted pregnancies must not be aborted, but think of these similar circumstances too.

[Gareth]

Your individual perspective doesn't give you the right to impose that perspective on another sovereign human being, in this case the pregnant woman, through legislation.

Legislation has caused the acceptance of murder. Thankfully not in Ireland yet.

[Viv]

Legislation has caused the acceptance of murder. Thankfully not in Ireland yet.

Is contraception murder?

[Viv]

How does that excuse murder ever?

If I had someone putting me through emotional trauma for 9 months am I allowed to take out a handgun and shoot? I see this living thing as a human being, the same as you or me.

You could be destroying the next Mozart, or the next Leonardo da Vinci, all people have potential.

The next Mozart could be the mother. Forcing her to carry an unwanted child to term, then give it up, or keep it, could destroy her.

The mother has rights.

The child does not exist for many, until that time where it is regarded in law as viable. Human.

It could be viewed that your sperm is a baby and not using for procreation is murder...

[Gareth]

Is contraception murder?

If it involves ripping out a growing corpse, yes. A living thing with a living beating heart.

[Viv]

If it involves ripping out a growing corpse, yes. A living thing with a living beating heart.

The idea is to pre-empt that scenario. But thank you for the mental image.

[Gareth]

If you are so supportive of the concept, you should be acquainted with the image. If it horrifies you, it means that it actually might be a horrifying act.

[Viv]

If you are so supportive of the concept, you should be acquainted with the image. If it horrifies you, it means that it actually might be a horrifying act.

Supportive of the lesser of evils.

If you cast your mind back, I am unable to reach a decision on abortion:

Originally Posted by quirk
What is your opinion on abortion?

Its the one subject I don't really have an opinion on (or do but keep changing). I have went from pro life to pro choice and now I am kind of back at pro life.

I know this is an emotional subject but lets try to have a reasonable and detailed debate about it.

Prolly closest to you on this, Quirk. It is against my instincts.

Having discussed it many times, I cannot be comfortable with it.

However, practically, there are many reasons to allow abortion.

I think the situation for women and for unwanted children...involves less suffering with abortion, than it did before.

There is of course the feminist aspect, that women have the right to choose and that is valid. At the end of the day, it is the woman who is usually left to be responsible for raising the child and her life is taken over by that. So women probably should have more choice in the outcome than men.

I have supported a few friends through this. It is not something I would want to go through and I do not think I could abort. But circumstances dictate the choice and it is not for others to judge.

The matter of support and counselling is very important, as women are often under emotional stress.


Quote:
An artist killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, leaving a note saying: "I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum."...

Her suicide note read: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no-one else does."
The inquest at Truro City Hall heard that Miss Beck had split up with her boyfriend, referred to as "Ben" after he "reacted badly" to the pregnancy.
Artist hanged herself after aborting her twins - Telegraph

In my heart, it feels wrong to me. And I do not think I could abort. But I have not been in that position and have no right to judge those who have. There are many variations on the issue. It is not black and white as you try to suggest.

[Gareth]

When lives are being lost it's the kind of thing we have to get a decision on.

[Viv]

The decision is made in many countries. It is not seen as murder but as the more humane option if it takes place early enough, before development of the "pain cortex":

But, writing in JAMA, they say pain requires the conscious recognition of an unpleasant stimulus.

This cannot happen until certain brain structures connecting the thalamus and the cerebral cortex develop during the third trimester of pregnancy.

These connections are not usually apparent until the 23rd week of pregnancy and may not begin to be made until the 30th week.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4180592.stm

[Lightweaver]

When lives are being lost it's the kind of thing we have to get a decision on.

There should be no "we" in that decision. The pregnant woman has the ultimate say since it involves her body.

[Gareth]

There should be no "we" in that decision. The pregnant woman has the ultimate say since it involves her body.

And the forming living being is denied a say of course, as it's less developed and considered unhuman even as it's heart beats?

[ciaranxavier]

And the forming living being is denied a say of course, as it's less developed and considered unhuman even as it's heart beats?

easy for you to say as a man. youll never be confronted with the possibility of being a single mom or having to make the decision to have an abortion or not. so its real easy for you to try and deny them their right to a choice. heres a good argument you should read. its not 100% spot on but it makes some very good points.

http://www.coolnurse.com/abortion_legal.htm



Nine Reasons Why Abortions are Legal

A Statement From Planned Parenthood Federation of America

Abortion is never an easy decision, but women have been making that choice for thousands of years, for many good reasons. Whenever a society has sought to outlaw abortions, it has only driven them into back alleys where they became dangerous, expensive, and humiliating. Amazingly, this was the case in the United States until 1973, when abortion was legalized nationwide.

Thousands of American women died and thousands more were maimed before abortion was legal. For this reason and others, women and men fought for and achieved women's legal right to make their own decisions about abortion.

However, there are people in our society who still won't accept this. Some argue that even victims of rape or incest should be forced to bear the child. And now, having failed to convince the public or the lawmakers, certain of these people have become violent extremists, engaging in a campaign of intimidation and terror aimed at women seeking abortions and health professionals who work at family planning clinics.

Some say these acts will stop abortions, but that is ridiculous. When the smoke clears, the same urgent reasons will exist for safe, legal abortions as have always existed. No nation committed to individual liberty could seriously consider returning to the days of back-alley abortions; to the revolting specter of a government forcing women to bear children against their will. Still, amid such attacks, it is worthwhile to repeat a few of the reasons why our society trusts each woman to make the abortion decision herself.

1. Laws against abortion kill women.
To prohibit abortions does not stop them. When women feel it is absolutely necessary, they will choose to have abortions, even in secret, without medical care, in dangerous circumstances. In the two decades before abortion was legal in the U.S., it's been estimated that nearly a million women per year sought out illegal abortions. Thousands died. Tens of thousands were mutilated. All were forced to behave as if they were criminals.

2. Legal abortions protect women's health.
Legal abortion not only protects women's lives, it also protects their health. For tens of thousands of women with heart disease, kidney disease, severe hypertension, sickle-cell anemia and severe diabetes, and other illnesses that can be life-threatening, the availability of legal abortion has helped avert serious medical complications that could have resulted from childbirth. Before legal abortion, such women's choices were limited to dangerous illegal abortion or dangerous childbirth.

3. A woman is more than a fetus.
There's an argument these days that a fetus is a "person" that is "indistinguishable from the rest of us" and that it deserves rights equal to women's. On this question there is a tremendous spectrum of religious, philosophical, scientific, and medical opinion. It's been argued for centuries. Fortunately, our society has recognized that each woman must be able to make this decision, based on her own conscience. To impose
a law defining a fetus as a "person," granting it rights equal to or superior to a woman's Ò a thinking, feeling, conscious human being Ò is arrogant and absurd. It only serves to diminish women.

4. Being a mother is just one option for women.
Many hard battles have been fought to win political and economic equality for women. These gains will not be worth much if reproductive choice is denied. To be able to choose a safe, legal abortion makes many other options possible. Otherwise an accident or a rape can end a woman's economic and personal freedom.

5. Outlawing abortion is discriminatory.
Anti-abortion laws discriminate against low-income women, who are driven to dangerous self-induced or back-alley abortions. That is all they can afford. But the rich can travel wherever necessary to obtain a safe abortion.

6. Compulsory pregnancy laws are incompatible with a free society.
If there is any matter which is personal and private, then pregnancy is it. There can be no more extreme invasion of privacy than requiring a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. If government is permitted to compel a woman to bear a child, where will government stop? The concept is morally repugnant. It violates traditional American ideas of individual rights and freedoms.

7. Outlaw abortion, and more children will bear children.
Forty percent of 14-year-old girls will become pregnant before they turn 20. This could happen to your daughter or someone else close to you. Here are the critical questions: Should the penalty for lack of knowledge or even for a moment's carelessness be enforced pregnancy and childrearing? Or dangerous illegal abortion? Should we consign a teenager to a life sentence of joblessness, hopelessness, and dependency?

8. "Every child a wanted child."
If women are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, the result is unwanted children. Everyone knows they are among society's most tragic cases, often uncared-for, unloved, brutalized, and abandoned. When they grow up, these children are often seriously disadvantaged, and sometimes inclined toward brutal behavior to others. This is not good for children, for families, or for the country. Children need love and families who want and will care for them.

9. Choice is good for families.
Even when precautions are taken, accidents can and do happen. For some families, this is not a problem.
But for others, such an event can be catastrophic. An unintended pregnancy can increase tensions, disrupt stability, and push people below the line of economic survival. Family planning is the answer. All options must be open. At the most basic level, the abortion issue is not really about abortion. It is about the value of women in society. Should women make their own decisions about family, career, and how to live their lives? Or should government do that for them? Do women have the option of deciding when or whether to have children? Or is that a government decision?

[Lightweaver]

That's an excellent article, ciaranxavier, and I may use it elsewhere. :)

[Kizzume]

I think if we're ever technologically to the point where we can remove a fetus from the mother without damaging it, and freezing it to be used later, or something similar--something that does not kill the small baby, at THAT point, and at that point only, we should make abortion illegal. Otherwise, abortion should be legal unless it has developed enough to survive outside the mother without the use of special equipment. I hate abortion, but I think women should have the right to their own body to remove something growing inside them, whether it's another real person or whether it's a tumor.

[bay]

as I've said before, I've been on both sides of this issue.

My roommate in college had an abortion before they were legal. She went to some quack doctor who did the procedure in a hotel room. She's damn lucky she lived through it.

throughout human history, women have found ways to abort pregnancies, drinking pennyroyal tea for example.

As I become more tuned in to the universe, I have to respect life in all its forms.

[Viv]

I think if we're ever technologically to the point where we can remove a fetus from the mother without damaging it, and freezing it to be used later, or something similar--something that does not kill the small baby, at THAT point, and at that point only, we should make abortion illegal. Otherwise, abortion should be legal unless it has developed enough to survive outside the mother without the use of special equipment. I hate abortion, but I think women should have the right to their own body to remove something growing inside them, whether it's another real person or whether it's a tumor.

I don't even think then it could be done, Kiz. If a woman does not want the baby, she may not want it preserved either. Minus the having to carry the baby for 9 months and labour...that could be likened to adopting, in some ways and there will be reasons why women would not want to do that. I don't know them, but maybe some women do not like the idea of passing responsibility to some stranger and all that entails...they'd rather stop it right there and abort. Then it's over. No possibility of it coming back up in say...20 years.

[Gareth]

I don't even think then it could be done, Kiz. If a woman does not want the baby, she may not want it preserved either. Minus the having to carry the baby for 9 months and labour...that could be likened to adopting, in some ways and there will be reasons why women would not want to do that. I don't know them, but maybe some women do not like the idea of passing responsibility to some stranger and all that entails...they'd rather stop it right there and abort. Then it's over. No possibility of it coming back up in say...20 years.

Freezing it would be a much viable alternative, I don't think anyone should be allowed to destroy another life as a matter of choice. What about the child's choice? Abortion cannot be a means of contraception it's disgraceful.

[donquixote99]

Take it from someone who was raised in the faith!!!

Its a haithful religion!!

Hate being an inate potential in human nature, you will find haters everywhere. It can be said with equal justice that Marxism is a hateful philosophy. The recent cheering here at the news of Marxist terror activities in India highlights this.

But it would be unfair to dismiss every point supported by Marxists just because of this aspect.

[Viv]

Freezing it would be a much viable alternative, I don't think anyone should be allowed to destroy another life as a matter of choice. What about the child's choice? Abortion cannot be a means of contraception it's disgraceful.

Should contraception be supported then?

The child does not have a choice at that stage because it is not perceived as sentient as yet.

The freezing of an unwanted baby defers the inevitable. If the situation is a bad one and the child should not have come to be, the parents have made the decision not to have the child, what makes you think they will want to add to the complicated mess they already find themselves in by freezing an embryo? That is so large a concept, I don't see how anyone could handle the emotional fallout.

Probably they just want it to be over in a clean cut way.

[Gareth]

Do you kill a living human being with a living beating heart using contraception?

[donquixote99]

The vast majority of frozen embryos would never be thawed, and would eventually be disposed of. The process would just be a fig leaf for abortion, in practice.

I wonder if there is anyone here who would support abortion 'on demand' at nine months?

[ciaranxavier]

Freezing it would be a much viable alternative, I don't think anyone should be allowed to destroy another life as a matter of choice. What about the child's choice? Abortion cannot be a means of contraception it's disgraceful.

i responded to you on the previous page is there a reason why your avoiding mt post well continuing to discuss the topic at hand with others?

[ciaranxavier]

Do you kill a living human being with a living beating heart using contraception?

depends whether you consider sperm a living being. some probably do.

[Viv]

The vast majority of frozen embryos would never be thawed, and would eventually be disposed of. The process would just be a fig leaf for abortion, in practice.

I wonder if there is anyone here who would support abortion 'on demand' at nine months?

No. What is your point, Don, I missed it?

[Gareth]

i responded to you on the previous page is there a reason why your avoiding mt post well continuing to discuss the topic at hand with others?

I've read the article actually. I will quote from it later. I've noted that most of the points in it are merely repetitions of earlier points in this thread.

[BlackBaron]

easy for you to say as a man. youll never be confronted with the possibility of being a single mom or having to make the decision to have an abortion or not. so its real easy for you to try and deny them their right to a choice. heres a good argument you should read. its not 100% spot on but it makes some very good points.



Yes true.

I would hope that no one would not appreciate the subjective pressures on a woman to abort in many circumstances. There are situations where it does really seem the only real option. However the question is whether abortion is OBJECTIVELY right or wrong. In your heart of hearts do you really consider it the same as wearing a condom?

[Viv]

Yes true.

I would hope that no one would not appreciate the subjective pressures on a woman to abort in many circumstances. There are situations where it does really seem the only real option. However the question is whether abortion is OBJECTIVELY right or wrong. In your heart of hearts do you really consider it the same as wearing a condom?

Well it is not. But the point there is that some men can be ready to obstruct the idea of abortion for ethical/moralistic reasons but do not see their own responsibility in this, i.e. had they worn a condom, there would be no abortion.

They can regard wearing condoms as a minor matter, no association with ethical choices, no question or morality or murder.

Essentially the two, abortion and condoms, perform the same function, which is prevention of an unwanted child.

Why then, should there be finger-pointing at women for preventing this, when there is nothing like that toward men who do exactly the same and are possibly more promiscuous in their habits?

[Gareth]

Essentially the two, abortion and condoms, perform the same function, which is prevention of an unwanted child.

Why then, should there be finger-pointing at women for preventing this, when there is nothing like that toward men who do exactly the same and are possibly more promiscuous in their habits?

That's absurd really. There is no child present to prevent with contraception, whereas the living being is already there by the time it has reached abortion stage. The zygote is formed and that is the beginning of life. Are you really suggesting that abortion should be the first port of call for women? There are many other options to be considered before one comes to abortion.

[Viv]

That's absurd really. There is no child present to prevent with contraception, whereas the living being is already there by the time it has reached abortion stage. The zygote is formed and that is the beginning of life. Are you really suggesting that abortion should be the first port of call for women? There are many other options to be considered before one comes to abortion.

This is more absurd. If there is not a child, what is the contraceptive preventing?

You evade the point, that there are different standards for men and women purely because the form of the prevention differs.

The zygote, we have discussed before and IMO the key is the moment when pain is registered and that is the basis of the acceptable time parameters within which abortion can be responsibly performed.

At no time did I suggest abortion as a first port of call for anyone.

[BlackBaron]

Why then, should there be finger-pointing at women for preventing this, when there is nothing like that toward men who do exactly the same and are possibly more promiscuous in their habits?

Well without finger point at anyone because he dont know their circumstances we should be able to debate whether the act of abortion is OBJECTIVELY right or wrong.

[Viv]

Well without finger point at anyone because he dont know their circumstances we should be able to debate whether the act of abortion is OBJECTIVELY right or wrong.

Objectively...detaching from feelings, emotions, societal influences, morals, ethics etc etc?

Then we are all just animals. Like any animal or insect. We have no soul, nothing supernatural, no special sacred qualities.

On that basis, what reason could there be against it?

[Gareth]

Even without all of those things, it's still killing another of your own species.

[Viv]

Even without all of those things, it's still killing another of your own species.

That is your view, which I respect.

But it can be seen as preventing formation of one of your own species...before it exists as a human being.

Or when it is in the grey area between being just a group of cells/fluid and a sentient being...

[Gareth]

It exists as a human being when the sperm fuses with the ovum. The only difference is it's less developed than you are. The same logic could be applied to a child being less developed than an adult. However you don't see people going around decapitating children under that logic do you?

[Viv]

It exists as a human being when the sperm fuses with the ovum. The only difference is it's less developed than you are. The same logic could be applied to a child being less developed than an adult. However you don't see people going around decapitating children under that logic do you?

sentient Show phonetics
adjective FORMAL
able to experience physical and possibly emotional feelings...

It is not the same, in the view of many and in law.

You do see people treat unwanted children horribly.

[Dreadfulfaery]

It exists as a human being when the sperm fuses with the ovum.

No - it exists as a cell with DNA. Then that little cell will repilcate and replicate and grow bigger and bigger - assumming your body doesnt reject it there and then.

Its a human being in that it is not a shark or a lion but its not a person til its born.

[Gareth]

No - it exists as a cell with DNA. Then that little cell will repilcate and replicate and grow bigger and bigger - assumming your body doesnt reject it there and then.

Its a human being in that it is not a shark or a lion but its not a person til its born.

That's the definition that is made to make people think. By the time it is aborted however it will have a heart of it's own. A truly living lifeform. The fact doesn't go away, it's a developing human being.



It is not the same, in the view of many and in law.

You do see people treat unwanted children horribly.
Yes they are condemned to death before they experience life, and it's become such a norm that legal systems in some countries (thankfully not in mine) tolerate it.

[Viv]

That's the definition that is made to make people think. By the time it is aborted however it will have a heart of it's own. A truly living lifeform. The fact doesn't go away, it's a developing human being.


Yes they are condemned to death before they experience life, and it's become such a norm that legal systems in some countries (thankfully not in mine) tolerate it.

But what are the alternatives? Abortion is a drastic measure. For that to be legalised, the situation must have been horrific.

[An Céachta Dearg]

That is your view, which I respect.

But it can be seen as preventing formation of one of your own species...before it exists as a human being.

Or when it is in the grey area between being just a group of cells/fluid and a sentient being...


There is no grey area, once a cell has 46 chromosones its one of our species. the moment o fertislation begins a process therefore it is a human.

[White Rabbit]

My view on abortion is simple.

As a society, we sometimes kill people. Sometimes this is legal killing and sometimes this is illegal killing. As a society, we make rules about who can be killed and who cannot be killed legally.

And as a society we have made a rule that says a fetus can be killed.

I have no more problem with that than I have with any other rule for killing we use. It all strikes me as an enormously self-serving game of legalized killing.

Quibbling about the morality of any given killing rule over the morality of any other other killing rule with anything but a 'cost-benefit' analysis seems absurd.

Ergo, I find it hard to get worked about about a few dead fetii while we are so busy going around killing so much other stuff.

[redpaddy]

But what are the alternatives? Abortion is a drastic measure. For that to be legalised, the situation must have been horrific.

Not really. In the US, abortion is legal until delivery.

[Phædrus]

It exists as a human being when the sperm fuses with the ovum. The only difference is it's less developed than you are. The same logic could be applied to a child being less developed than an adult. However you don't see people going around decapitating children under that logic do you?

What happens if it splits into identical twins? Are they the same person, or two? If it's two beings, which one is the original, or was the original destroyed when they split?

[Phædrus]

Not really. In the US, abortion is legal until delivery.

I was under the impression that it was legal during the first, and maybe second trimesters, but I may be mistaken.

[Viv]

My view on abortion is simple.

As a society, we sometimes kill people. Sometimes this is legal killing and sometimes this is illegal killing. As a society, we make rules about who can be killed and who cannot be killed legally.

And as a society we have made a rule that says a fetus can be killed.

I have no more problem with that than I have with any other rule for killing we use. It all strikes me as an enormously self-serving game of legalized killing.

Quibbling about the morality of any given killing rule over the morality of any other other killing rule with anything but a 'cost-benefit' analysis seems absurd.

Ergo, I find it hard to get worked about about a few dead fetii while we are so busy going around killing so much other stuff.

...because we are killing many people/things, these do not matter to you?

This is a little romantic and you may find it off topic, but I will post it anyway to illustrate a view... that these beings do matter:

As I walked along the seashore, I saw the beach was covered by hundreds of stranded starfish washed up from the sea, baking in the scorching sun.

A boy was tossing stranded starfish one by one, back into the sea. I said "Tell me why you bother? There's a million stranded starfish and you cannot save them all. Why does it matter anyway?"

He said "It deserves a chance to grow. I can't save them all. But it matters to this one and it matters to me."

I walked into the classroom, The teacher greeted me. She was helping Johnny study, he was struggling. I said, "Tell me why you bother? He is only one of millions and you cannot save them all. Why does it matter anyway?"

She replied "He deserves a chance to grow. I can't save them. But it matters to this one, and it matters to me..."

You have to care...IMO...they all matter...

[Gareth]

Ergo, I find it hard to get worked about about a few dead fetii while we are so busy going around killing so much other stuff.

A few 57,000,000 a year.

[quirk]

A few 57,000,000 a year.

Thats alot. I really never realised that it was to this extent.

[Gareth]

Thats alot. I really never realised that it was to this extent.

That is in 2006 worldwide.

In 2003, Russians had 13 abortions per 10 live births.

[quirk]

Thats wild. Basically they are just using it as a form of contraception.

[Cúchulainn]

Thats wild. Basically they are just using it as a form of contraception.

Yeah, it's sickening. I believe that abortion should be allowed, but only one abortion (at the most) per woman, and there has to be better education about contraception.