Spanish extreme hypocrisy

[AngelVelasco]

Source web translated into English (http://www.google.es/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insurgente.org%2Fmodu les.php%3Fname%3DNews%26file%3Darticle%26sid%3D130 93&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=es&ie=UTF8)

http://www.insurgente.org/ficheros/Exturquia.PNG

The Government of Spain -one, nothing enlarged and free (from the fascist topic of "España una, grande y libre, "Spain, one, big and free")- the same that illegalize Basque political parties and jailed their leaders, has issued a statement that says "looks with concern" the filing of a lawsuit by of the Attorney General of Turkey in which he claims that "the closure of the Justice and Development party and the suspension of its top leadership for 5 years to understand that their activity violates the secular nature of the Turkish Republic." And in the height of cynicism institutional, adds: "It is desirable that political issues were kept outside the courts in order to a scrupulous respect for the separation of powers." Tips for selling and not have them...

[Mono Tejano]

Is the Justice and Development Party a thinly-veiled political front for a separatist terrorist organization?

like Batasuna fronting for ETA?

[AngelVelasco]

Batasuna is not the political veil of ETA. And the Spanish Goverment cannot appeal "that political issues were kept outside the courts in order to a scrupulous respect for the separation of powers" when they are the first ones who join those powers when they want it.

[Gareth]

I agree with Mono, as long as these ETA attacks continue there should be no provisions for a Basque state. Political parties which support terror should be removed from parliament with by elections following.

[Enver]

I agree with Mono, as long as these ETA attacks continue there should be no provisions for a Basque state. Political parties which support terror should be removed from parliament with by elections following.

Sieg Heil!

[Enver]

I'm on the fence about whether ETA should continue an armed campaign or not. Let's be honest; they've never been particularly effective compared with other groups such as the IRA or PLO (but then again neither of those organisations are any closer to their ultimate goal). But the Spanish government's unwillingness to remove itself from the Basque homeland, in spite of an overwhelming majority in favour of independence, at least justifies armed action. I suppose the question for me is whether it's proficient or not, tactically speaking.

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna

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[Gareth]

"blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God" - Jesus, Sermon of the Mount
"whoever bears the sword will die by the sword" - Jesus, Garden of Gethsemane.

The reason I do not believe violence is a viable means of asserting statehood.

[Enver]

"blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God" - Jesus, Sermon of the Mount
"whoever bears the sword will die by the sword" - Jesus, Garden of Gethsemane.

The reason I do not believe violence is a viable means of asserting statehood.

But you're quite content to allow brash, violent men to do violence on your part in order to keep upstarts down.

Alas, such is the middle class way of life. :p

[Gareth]

I don't allow brash or violent men to do violence on anyones part. When have I suggested this?

Anyone who uses violence is to blame, state or otherwise!

[Enver]

I don't allow brash or violent men to do violence on anyones part. When have I suggested this?

Anyone who uses violence is to blame, state or otherwise!

You support the police of this state and you have stated that you believe the Israeli state has a right to defend itself, presumably via the IOF?

Both the Free State police and the IOF are extremely brash and violent organisations.

[Gareth]

If there is a threat to the safety and the security of people then they need to establish stability. However I do not agree with air strikes, I personally would support a system of arrest for those who deem it acceptable to fire rockets into certain areas. I do think the IDF action is also disproportionate. (Please use their official name)

Bear in mind I only think war should be exercised when negosiations have been exhausted. If war is the only way to establish stability, then this is the conclusion that has to be decided upon. Hence why I actually don't agree with much IDF actions. However when one is attacked, what else should one do apart from keep people from danger.

[AngelVelasco]

Batasuna don't support terrorism, they simply say nothing about terrorist actions. They don't condemn them, they don't support them. And even more, when they have said a word, it has been condemning the action and regreting if ETA killed someone as they did when the action in the airport of Madrid.

Some ETA ex-members, those who got to the conclusion that political action is more efective than the armed one, became Batasuna members and for that reason Spanish Goverment says that Batasuna is ETA. Even when double militancy were a fact, it would only be an individual crime for being member of an armed group, never a reason to illegalize the whole organization. When all the Spanish National Audience cannot demostrate an obvious link between ETA and Batasuna it's quite clear that they only have in common the goal and not a few members. And that's the key: every kind of organization which goal is the social and national freedom for the Basque country is considered as part of ETA and so persecuted and illegalized, even when they do condemn violence as EHAK, for example.

And, if we were in a democracy... that's true that Batasuna shouts up when an action has taken place but that's also true that PP (Partido Popular, where most of the Franco's Goverment sons, daughters and so on are) also said nothing condemning victims killed while Franco's dictature and the fascist insurrection against the Republic that started the Civil War.

Batasuna is persecuted and illegalized but PP is not... why it should be that way?...

[LARKIN32]

Alas, such is the middle class way of life. :p..ah

If there is a threat to the safety and the security of people then they need to establish stability. However I do not agree with air strikes, I personally would support a system of arrest for those who deem it acceptable to fire rockets into certain areas. I do think the IDF action is also disproportionate. (Please use their official name)

Bear in mind I only think war should be exercised when negosiations have been exhausted. If war is the only way to establish stability, then this is the conclusion that has to be decided upon. Hence why I actually don't agree with much idf actions. However when one is attacked, what else should one do apart from keep people from danger.

id rather call the IOF ..nazizionist murdering bastards...but its best to make it easy and hyphenate it..hope thats ok..:D

liked the last bit..."when one is attacked,what else should ONE do apart from keep[their]people from danger...etc...etc
yes thats called resistance...
u.n.conventions/international law etc state...occupied peoples have the right to resist occupations by a foeRign military power,by any means,including armed struggle....etc etc

[Gareth]

..ah

id rather call the IOF ..nazizionist murdering bastards...but its best to make it easy and hyphenate it..hope thats ok..:D

liked the last bit..."when one is attacked,what else should ONE do apart from keep[their]people from danger...etc...etc
yes thats called resistance...
u.n.conventions/international law etc state...occupied peoples have the right to resist occupations by a foeRign military power,by any means,including armed struggle....etc etc

In the case of militants in Gaza and West Bank that is not true. If teachers put down recruitment posters outside Palestinian schools they risk death. I know this from discussing with someone who has gone to Hebron and seen it for himself. Secondly, the IDF are the military instated for the majority of the Israeli people. However militants, are only small clusters who might go against the will of their people and serve themselves. Militants are not an organised defence force and will never be.

Show me the UN documents that suggest that militants can use their own people as human shields please? Or that they can go inside the land of another sovereign state and kill children in a yeshiva, or go inside Israel and suicide bomb on buses and other things.

I agree with Palestinians fighting for their own rights, but this rubbish sets things backward instead of forward when people use violence.

[Enver]

The IDF are the military instated for the majority of the Israeli people.

An illegal state created on stolen Palestinian land.

However militants, are only small clusters who might go against the will of their people and serve themselves. Militants are not an organised defence force and will never be.

Were all the members of the PLO just 'militants'? They were recognised by the Arab League and the UN as the closest thing Palestinians had to a government and were granted diplomatic status.

Show me the UN documents that suggest that militants can use their own people as human shields please?

Show me the UN documents that suggest it is acceptable to deliberately target civilians, including children. Show me the UN documents that suggest it is acceptable to brutally torture prisoners. The Israelis are guilty of these crimes and many, many more.

Or that they can go inside the land of another sovereign state and kill children in a yeshiva, or go inside Israel and suicide bomb on buses and other things.

Israel has no right to sovereignty in Palestine, just as the British have no right to sovereignty in Ireland. Why are Israeli atrocities (which are far higher in number and magnitude) more acceptable to you than these horrendous attacks carried out by Palestinians?

I agree with Palestinians fighting for their own rights

You clearly don't.

but this rubbish sets things backward instead of forward when people use violence.

Yes we know Gareth; the only party that has a right to use force are the Zionists.

[Gareth]

It's funny you know. When I argue for Palestinian rights with extreme Zionists. I'm called anti-Semitic. When I argue for Israel's right to exist and Palestinians rights to be equal citizens, I'm referred to as a Zionist sympathiser. Can you please clearly clarify what I am?

I believe Israel has changes to make, however I'm not an advocate for destroying it as a State at the same time.

[An Céachta Dearg]

It's funny you know. When I argue for Palestinian rights with extreme Zionists. I'm called anti-Semitic. When I argue for Israel's right to exist and Palestinians rights to be equal citizens, I'm referred to as a Zionist sympathiser. Can you please clearly clarify what I am?

I believe Israel has changes to make, however I'm not an advocate for destroying it as a State at the same time.

It has to be destroyed as a state if peace is to be attained in the middle east Gareth. The robery of land hasnt ended you know. The Israelis are as we are speaking moving further and further into the defined palestinain areas of the Gaza strip and the West Bank. They are bombing constantly palestinian villages, cities and towns purposely. They are building a wall to cage the palestinians in. If you live on the border and want to about your everyday business you have to pass through an innumerable amount of checkpoints and vicious verbal abuse at these points.

Also when they had the campaign against Hizbollah two years ago the Israelis purposely targeted Palestinian refugee camps in southern Lebanon.

The solution of the problem is the reinstitutionalising of the Palestinian state and the reunification of Palestine, with the Israelis having equal rights within the state and a peace process commencing.

You are by your very nature a zionist symphatiser if you propse for the continued existance for Israel

[Gareth]

I disagree, if peace is to be maintained in the Middle East, Israel must stay as it is, and tolerate it's Palestinian grouping. If Israel is destroyed, you will not see anything other than chaos due to it's importance in the world.

I support the continuation of Israel as this is what it has been called by Christians, Jews and Muslims (in the Qur'an). I don't see any issue with the name of Israel. Zionist would imply that I support an exclusively Jewish state, I do not at all. Infact Israel is one of the regions probably most suited to secularism due to the existence of the 3 major Abrahamic faiths there.

[An Céachta Dearg]

I disagree, if peace is to be maintained in the Middle East, Israel must stay as it is, and tolerate it's Palestinian grouping. If Israel is destroyed, you will not see anything other than chaos due to it's importance in the world..

Wait I agree with you that the holy land for some strange reason has an importance in the world. However the State of Israel bears no importance to the world at large other than being a threat to peace both in the middle east and further afield. Do you reeber when Sharon threathened Chirac a few years back(funny stuff that)

I support the continuation of Israel as this is what it has been called by Christians, Jews and Muslims (in the Qur'an). I don't see any issue with the name of Israel. Zionist would imply that I support an exclusively Jewish state, I do not at all. Infact Israel is one of the regions probably most suited to secularism due to the existence of the 3 major Abrahamic faiths there.


The continuation of the State of Israel is a crime against humanity. While they continue to oppress the natives of the area and destroy Civilian towns villages and continue the BUTCHERING of civilian populaces they must be destroyed. They are a law to themselves. They have commited more violations of the UN and more War Crimes than Iraq under Saddam yet the Americans do not invade, But arm them!!!

[Gareth]

Yes, that is an issue of government, not of Israel being named Israel. I don't agree with many Israeli policies. However as I've explained elsewhere if Israel go too liberal they will experience a suicide bombing as there was a spate of them in 2002, and if they tighten up they get rocket attacks. What can be sure is Israel will always lose somehow.

[Enver]

It has to be destroyed as a state if peace is to be attained in the middle east Gareth. The robery of land hasnt ended you know. The Israelis are as we are speaking moving further and further into the defined palestinain areas of the Gaza strip and the West Bank. They are bombing constantly palestinian villages, cities and towns purposely. They are building a wall to cage the palestinians in. If you live on the border and want to about your everyday business you have to pass through an innumerable amount of checkpoints and vicious verbal abuse at these points.

Also when they had the campaign against Hizbollah two years ago the Israelis purposely targeted Palestinian refugee camps in southern Lebanon.

The solution of the problem is the reinstitutionalising of the Palestinian state and the reunification of Palestine, with the Israelis having equal rights within the state and a peace process commencing.

You are by your very nature a zionist symphatiser if you propse for the continued existance for Israel

It's a pity you're not as motivated about the occupation of your own country.

[An Céachta Dearg]

It's a pity you're not as motivated about the occupation of your own country.

I do, I'am just not as extreme as you.

[Enver]

I do, I'am just not as extreme as you.

I'm not extreme, either you believe in Irish democracy and sovereignty or you don't.

[An Céachta Dearg]

I'm not extreme, either you believe in Irish democracy and sovereignty or you don't.

I agree with both, However my views in how to attain them differ to yours, but I have grown weary of that debate

[Gareth]

It's a pity you're not as motivated about the occupation of your own country.

He's motivated about the destruction of Israel, instead of forming a new government (which is the issue) and keeping Israel as is. A bit excessive don't you think?

[Enver]

I agree with both, However my views in how to attain them differ to yours, but I have grown weary of that debate

That didn't take long.

It's an extremely important issue and you've 'grown 'weary' from debating it already?

[An Céachta Dearg]

He's motivated about the destruction of Israel, instead of forming a new government (which is the issue) and keeping Israel as is. A bit excessive don't you think?

Wait your taking my comments out of context here Gareth. I want the destruction of the state of Israel I do not deny this as the partition of Palestine can only lead to further trouble. However I believe that the current "Israeli's" deserve an equal partnership in the furtherning of this new and reformed Palestinian state that both the communities can live together in peace, I would not be opposed to a federal state similar to Belgium or the one that maintans peace between christians and muslims in Bosnia-.

Please do not present me to be saying something that I'am not

[An Céachta Dearg]

That didn't take long.

It's an extremely important issue and you've 'grown 'weary' from debating it already?

Enver I have debated it a lot longer than just this forum. I was a member of SF up until quite recently. I have no problem continueing the debate lets just keep the thread relevant

[Enver]

He's motivated about the destruction of Israel, instead of forming a new government (which is the issue) and keeping Israel as is. A bit excessive don't you think?

Well it's not possible for a start; Israel has a massive military-industrial complex and is a nuclear power. The two state solution is the best platform for the Palestinians to advance their struggle right now, in my opinion.

[BlackBaron]

I don't allow brash or violent men to do violence on anyones part. When have I suggested this?

Anyone who uses violence is to blame, state or otherwise!

Dear Gareth,

Honestly speaking I am attracted to the position of total pacifism HOWEVER I know that given this world there will always be those who are prepared to use violence. For all the good willed people in the world to adopt pacifism would be to allow a Genghis Khan to run rampage. All states use violence to protect law and order so people can lead relatively peaceful lives aswell as their own own authority. What you say about ETA would hold true for the "United Kingdom" which asserts its statehood with violence (witness bloody sunday, the Malvinas wars, the loyalist death squads, the British police arresting welsh patriots for burning down second homes, etc).

While Marxism is morally wrong Hoxha has a point....At least as long as we live in this fallen world.

[Enver]

Enver I have debated it a lot longer than just this forum. I was a member of SF up until quite recently. I have no problem continueing the debate lets just keep the thread relevant

It's extremely relevant.

You're views on Palestine are completely inconsistent with your views on Ireland.

[Gareth]

Enver: In relation to Ireland you seem to want to make the quickest settlement possible. However do you not realise there are serious economic implications if this happens. Reunification of Germany, someone please tell me what happened? We must do this slowly.

I respect the wishes of the Northerners, and I will let them come when they are ready, and I hope that the British have made further improvements by then :)

[An Céachta Dearg]

It's a pity you're not as motivated about the occupation of your own country.So would you happier if I was like this

Take it down from the mast....


Gareth you have ignored my point

[Gareth]

Wait your taking my comments out of context here Gareth. I want the destruction of the state of Israel I do not deny this as the partition of Palestine can only lead to further trouble. However I believe that the current "Israeli's" deserve an equal partnership in the furtherning of this new and reformed Palestinian state that both the communities can live together in peace, I would not be opposed to a federal state similar to Belgium or the one that maintans peace between christians and muslims in Bosnia-.

Please do not present me to be saying something that I'am not

You said that the Israeli state had to be destroyed.

Palestine isn't Israel. By Israel I mean that Palestinians should be allowed representation in the Knesset. Parliamentary reform is different to completely rebranding the State. Why you feel you need to take the Star of David off the flag, and to change the name is unnecessary. Isn't David a prophet of Judaism, Christianity and Islam?

The size of the region is too small to warrant federalism, however representation as it is without the Occupied Territories has 1 Arab party, however with involvement from Palestinian areas it would be far more influential and fair politics. Abolish the PA and move all the politics as one in the Knesset.

[LARKIN32]

You said that the Israeli state had to be destroyed.

Palestine isn't Israel. By Israel I mean that Palestinians should be allowed representation in the Knesset. Parliamentary reform is different to completely rebranding the State. Why you feel you need to take the Star of David off the flag, and to change the name is unnecessary. Isn't David a prophet of Judaism, Christianity and Islam?

The size of the region is too small to warrant federalism, however representation as it is without the Occupied Territories has 1 Arab party, however with involvement from Palestinian areas it would be far more influential and fair politics. Abolish the PA and move all the politics as one in the Knesset.
first things first gareth..stop talkin to zionists.. youll end up talkin like one..
still the palestinians will never ,never be part of a zionist state,
1.zionism by its nature is an ethnocentric rightwing ideaology.and as its views on palestinians.
2.palestinians ,would never be slaves to a zionist state on THEIR land.


........also you seem to have the idea that its two equal sides...its not its oppressor against oppressed... if i was a zionist ,reading what you have said on here,id think you were doing good work...not antizionist
ps.palestinians are real semites ,,,too

[An Céachta Dearg]

You said that the Israeli state had to be destroyed.

Palestine isn't Israel. By Israel I mean that Palestinians should be allowed representation in the Knesset. Parliamentary reform is different to completely rebranding the State. Why you feel you need to take the Star of David off the flag, and to change the name is unnecessary. Isn't David a prophet of Judaism, Christianity and Islam?

The size of the region is too small to warrant federalism, however representation as it is without the Occupied Territories has 1 Arab party, however with involvement from Palestinian areas it would be far more influential and fair politics. Abolish the PA and move all the politics as one in the Knesset.

Israel was Palestine therefore Israel is Palestine. Yes I do propose the destruction of the false apartheid state that is Israel. The Knesset has to be removed and replaced by a completely new and repackaged parliamentry body.

Belgium isnt the biggest country in the world yet federalism still works in that country. "the occupied territories" the whole country is an occupied territory. This to me isnt about religion and I oppose the star of David on the flag as much as I would despise the Cross or the Crescent and Star. This to me is political oppression of those who are indigneous to Palestine and are suffering what is technically a form of genocide.

The state of palestine is fake even by Jewish standards and many Jews are opposed to it. They believe that only the Messiah can form the country of Israel and therefore do not recgnise the current state. Also can you seriously justify the human rights abuses of the Israeli state.

[Gareth]

two equal sides

That's like saying the Anglo-Irish conflict or the NATO-Afghan conflict is between two 'equal' sides.

They clearly aren't. It's oppressor vs the oppressed.

[Enver]

My apologies Gareth, I edited your post instead of quoting it. :o

[Gareth]

My apologies Gareth, I edited your post instead of quoting it. :o

I've brought this to the attention of the other moderators, that's not on.

[Gareth]

Israel was Palestine therefore Israel is Palestine. Yes I do propose the destruction of the false apartheid state that is Israel. The Knesset has to be removed and replaced by a completely new and repackaged parliamentry body.

It was named Israel far before it was named Palestine.

Secondly, federalism in Israel would be throwing millions of NIS (New Israeli Shekels) down the drain.

[LARKIN32]

what the fk???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????

[Enver]

It was named Israel far before it was named Palestine.

Secondly, federalism in Israel would be throwing millions of NIS (New Israeli Shekels) down the drain.

It all boils down to your belief in Christianity and Judaism, its forerunner. I bet you also believe there's something special about that chunk of land? That it's 'holy'. Well it's not, because that's daft.

[An Céachta Dearg]

It was named Israel far before it was named Palestine.
.

the region was always known as Palestine but had mabny smaller states in the area such as Israel and Judea.Palestine was eventually united. It was originally known as Palestine in contemporary society and that is what I base my judgement upon I have no care for 2000 years ago only for the present.

Secondly, federalism in Israel would be throwing millions of NIS (New Israeli Shekels) down the drain.

Of course it would cost a lot of Shekels whether throwing them the drain is concerned well that is another matter. The Israelis would have to rebuild the Paletsinain areas of the Gaza Strip and The West Bank which they destroyed. They would haver to tackle the poverty situation which they helped to create. They would have to deal with the Palestinian refugess which they displaced and would have to compensater the Palestinian farmers whom they robbed.

[Gareth]

It all boils down to your belief in Christianity and Judaism, its forerunner. I bet you also believe there's something special about that chunk of land? That it's 'holy'. Well it's not, because that's daft.

In my religious tradition it is holy. I would heavily dispute your post on that reasoning. Archaeology shows that Christianity and Judaism have a long history in the area. I'm amazed at the stuff the archaeologists are finding there these days. The latest being a part of the temple silver in a gutter near the Temple Mount dating roughly 2000 years ago.

However why can't we share in this great legacy that is taking place in Israel? Jew, Christian and Muslim I hope some day.

[Gareth]

the region was always known as Palestine but had mabny smaller states in the area such as Israel and Judea.Palestine was eventually united. It was originally known as Palestine in contemporary society and that is what I base my judgement upon I have no care for 2000 years ago only for the present.

I disagree between 1500BC and 164AD (Roman conquest of Israel) there was Jewish rule in Israel, with one break in that cycle between 500 - 700BC. And the State was named Israel.

[An Céachta Dearg]

I disagree between 1500BC and 164AD (Roman conquest of Israel) there was Jewish rule in Israel, with one break in that cycle between 500 - 700BC.

Before the majority of the "Israeli Jews" converted to Islam and used the name of the region that was in use for a as long as Israel was Palestine

[Gareth]

Many Jews took to Christianity also. Our religion was founded by Jews, so much so that we believe that Christianity was the new Judaism. Christianity is only a faith to bring Jews and Christians to their Messiah.

Infact over 150,000 Jews in the world today claim Yeshua ben Nazerat as their Messiah.

Jews for Jesus (http://www.jewsforjesus.org), IMJA (http://www.imja.com/), MJAA (http://www.mjaa.org/), UMJC (http://www.umjc.net/), are examples of these.

It is possible to be Jewish and Christian.

Hm, on the naming issue, Palestine was only used as the name of a Roman province. As for this Philistilia the nation of the Philistines was only the size of the modern day Gaza Strip. It never involved the whole region from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.

[LARKIN32]

I disagree between 1500BC and 164AD (Roman conquest of Israel) there was Jewish rule in Israel, with one break in that cycle between 500 - 700BC. And the State was named Israel.
the only time in history that there was a jewish state in middle east,it lasted only 60 years.along time ago.

ps..sort the warning thing out..please..

[Gareth]

the only time in history that there was a jewish state in middle east,it lasted only 60 years.along time ago.

ps..sort the warning thing out..please..

The warning stands, you need to find other ways of making your points apart from cursing incessantly.

There has been a Jewish state in Israel for that period I mentioned also. Archaeology doesn't lie. They have found distinct signs of Jewish settlement including the Qumran site found in 1948. Also there was Jewish - Roman correspondence during the Greek occupation of the Selucid Empire.

[LARKIN32]

hey if you have yer ideas thats one thing...
but dont start tellin me what the fk to do pal ..ok..
youve not given a good reason yet,apart from bs..at why you can give a warning to the person your debating with..

[Gareth]

Innappropriate language is a reason alone. Then we have abuse. However if you wish to discuss it please take it to PM.

[LARKIN32]

well where was the abuse..?
and since when as fk been a swear word...