Gun law...

[Phædrus]

Run Phae...run quite fast...:D

You forget. I'm a gun-toting American Libertarian. :p

I can get away with this stuff, because anyone who tracks me down to take revenge on me for making fun of a stereotype will get a quick introduction to Mr. 9x18mm Makarov. ;)

[Viv]

You forget. I'm a gun-toting American Libertarian. :p

I can get away with this stuff, because anyone who tracks me down to take revenge on me for making fun of a stereotype will get a quick introduction to Mr. 9x18mm Makarov. ;)

Yeah, isn't that strange? I was going to post a thread about gun law...it's always the busiest thread. But there's not really anyone here who cares about guns...:eek:

Except you...:D

[Phædrus]

Yeah, isn't that strange? I was going to post a thread about gun law...it's always the busiest thread. But there's not really anyone here who cares about guns...:eek:

Except you...:D

Yup. :D

I'm a bit atypical of US shooters because I like a lot of the Eastern Bloc pistol cartridges; 9x18mm, 7.62x25mm, etc. I think it's because I started shooting when my dad did, and he started shooting with antique military weapons that were on the Curios and Relics License list, and most of the semi-autos on that list (though not all) are former USSR weapons. So I learned to shoot handguns with the Makarov PM, vz. 82, vz. 52, and TT-33 Tokarev.

Anywho, I'm willing to defend gun rights in a gun debate.

Back on topic, now! :cool:

[bay]

well, protected by Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson here... I'd be pretty useful in a revolution.... LOL....

[An Céachta Dearg]

well, protected by Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson here... I'd be pretty useful in a revolution.... LOL....

No civilain should have access to guns.

The system in place here is much better and unarmed police force and a very tight control on guns, although some criminal rings have them but so do detectives to take the scum down.

[Viv]

Stop stop, Red move this up into a thread...:D...

[bay]

well Red, I live out in the country. I'm miles from law enforcement and have a psycho ex who has enough firepower to arm a 3rd world country. I'd be long dead by the time the police got here if I couldn't defend myself.

and even if that weren't the case, I have livestock and on occasion have to protect them from predators. I'm not going to chase away a mountain lion with a stick!

Now back to your regurly scheduled programming. I'll watch the videos when my )$*$%^#)$#^$% wireless is back up and running!

I HATE DIAL UP

no that's not strong enough

I FOOKIN HATE DIALUP

[Enver]

No civilain should have access to guns.

So you think the ruling classes should have a monopoly on firearms?

I'm in favour of lax gun laws.

[An Céachta Dearg]

well Red, I live out in the country. I'm miles from law enforcement and have a psycho ex who has enough firepower to arm a 3rd world country. I'd be long dead by the time the police got here if I couldn't defend myself.

This isthe problem. No-one should be allowed to have a gun let alone enough to arm a small country. Personally I'am very opposed to gun ownership and the consequnces of it, Virginia Tech, Columbine. I mean come on if it was the same over here I could just walk into Tesco and pick up an M16 along with my bread and milk like. I think it is okay for a farmer to own a shot gun and a limited amount of ammunition but owning guns for the sake of fun or a society that has created a mentality that makes people feel they need a gun for protection is wrong and against everything society is about.

and even if that weren't the case, I have livestock and on occasion have to protect them from predators. I'm not going to chase away a mountain lion with a stick!.

I have made mypoint on Farmers having a shotgun, but ownership of property is another problem for me but thats for another debate:p[/QUOTE]

Now back to your regurly scheduled programming. I'll watch the videos when my )$*$%^#)$#^$% wireless is back up and running!

I HATE DIAL UP

no that's not strong enough

I FOOKIN HATE DIALUP

ahhh the joys of broadband!!!

[An Céachta Dearg]

So you think the ruling classes should have a monopoly on firearms?

I'm in favour of lax gun laws.


I did not mention the ruling classes in my topic at all, i said i propose unarmed civilians and unarmed police forces

[Enver]

I did not mention the ruling classes in my topic at all, i said i propose unarmed civilians and unarmed police forces

Well ideally that will be the case someday, but in the interim I say let everyone pack some heat. :D

[bay]

well,you can't just walk into a supermarket here either and buy a gun. that's just silly! There's a lot of red tape involved in gun ownership here. It's not as easy as it appears from the news you get about us.

you have to get them from a specialty store, that is highly regulated by the feds, fill out a mountain of paperwork, undergo a crimninal background check, sign your life away practically.

as for my ex, unfortunately since he was never committed to an institution by a court of law, his forays into mental health institutions dont' show up on a background check. And even if they did and he was blocked by legal means, he's bought several from friends, and such, bypassing the system.

and things like columbine and virginia tech happened in communities that have pretty tight gun regulations.

it's like so many other things, make it illegal, and it just goes underground.

[An Céachta Dearg]

well,you can't just walk into a supermarket here either and buy a gun. that's just silly! There's a lot of red tape involved in gun ownership here. It's not as easy as it appears from the news you get about us.

you have to get them from a specialty store, that is highly regulated by the feds, fill out a mountain of paperwork, undergo a crimninal background check, sign your life away practically.

as for my ex, unfortunately since he was never committed to an institution by a court of law, his forays into mental health institutions dont' show up on a background check. And even if they did and he was blocked by legal means, he's bought several from friends, and such, bypassing the system.

and things like columbine and virginia tech happened in communities that have pretty tight gun regulations.

it's like so many other things, make it illegal, and it just goes underground.

You have just argued against yourself Bay.

The example of your Ex shows just how easy it is to bypass the system and even if he attained the guns leagally shows the flaws within the system. In that people with unrecorded problems can still get their hands on guns relatively simple.

As for the two school incidents there were "tight" gun regulations in place but these events still occured and resulted in horrific loss of life and young life at that. These events would not have happened or would have been no where near as likely to happen if there was a no gun policy.

Yes of course if we make it illegal it goes underground, I mean prostitution is underground, as is the drugs trade, However it is harder for a prostitute to ply his/her trade where it is illegal than it is in Amsterdam. The point being if guns were made illegal and forced underground they would eventually become harder to attain and much more difficult to use. It would also be a crime to be found in possesion of a fire arm( a crime here that can land a ten year prison sentence)

[quirk]

I did not mention the ruling classes in my topic at all, i said i propose unarmed civilians and unarmed police forces

They would still have an army and some armed police.

[An Céachta Dearg]

They would still have an army and some armed police.

That would be neccessary yes

[quirk]

So they would have a monopoly on arms.

[An Céachta Dearg]

So they would have a monopoly on arms.

But not neccesarly the ruling class. The position of the Army and Armed police would of course depend upon the type of sytem in place. If a fully socialist system is in place they are then armed in defence of the people. However I agree that whilsth they are armed under a capitilist institution they re there to keep the proletariat in their place, but as I said this is completely down to the politics of the adminstration in place.

[quirk]

Yeah I agree. I just thought the debate was in relation to the present system.

[flax]

In the social contract we have signed away the violence monopoly to the state.

It has the right to use force within reason to uphold law and order and to protect us from outside threats

Thats what the police and army are there for.

If you wount abide by that contract the you are moving towards a lawless society.
For the strong that would mean much more freedom to do what you like but for the weak it would mean a life of fear.

You might argue that society cant protect its weaker members.
But would your awnser be the you should weaken the social contract as a whole or strenghten society ?

If you dont like the the yoke of civilzrd society i might suggest a few areas in africa without central rule you might want to move to.
(i would suggest bringing your guns there btw)

Flax

[Phædrus]

The problem is, there will always be those who break the law, and it's easy to get a gun illegally. Not just in America, either; if you have the money, you can get a gun in just about any country.

That's why we need guns. Criminals are going to get them anyways. Removing guns from the hands of the average civilian leaves guns in the hands of two groups: the criminals, and the government. It is quite possible that at some point in your life you will need to defend yourself from one or the other. I'd like to point out that Hitler quashed rebellions in Denmark, Norway, and Poland by forbidding any non German citizen in those countries to own a firearm of any kind and enforcing it with the death penalty. A well armed populace can help stop the creation of a tyrannical regime.

[donquixote99]

Yeah I agree. I just thought the debate was in relation to the present system.

Ah, then it's settled. It's ok if only the police and army have guns, if it's 'your' police and army.

I think that if the people are supposed to be soverign, they should have guns and the government should not. An attempt was made to so arrange things here, but it didn't work out that way.

[bay]

tell me about irish gun laws

[Gareth]

take them off the street for good is what I say.

[Viv]

May be a question of where and how you live. If you are a townie in Europe, why do you need a gun? If you live rurally, then you may have a valid need for a gun as a working tool. If you are Phaedrus, you want a toy and that, for me, is unacceptable because not everyone is like Phaedrus, some people are unreasonable and that carries a risk of abuse.
What is the point of normal people having guns? How many times are normal people going to need one in their lives?
If it comes to sovereignty, or the war/invasion issue, how many of us are going to be called on to fight these days?
The UK is involved in military action on many fronts, but none of it impacts within the UK.
Of course the Irish question is different:D...but that apart I don't see it as an idea to have everyman carrying guns...it is asking for trouble.

[Enver]

Ah, then it's settled. It's ok if only the police and army have guns, if it's 'your' police and army.

I think that if the people are supposed to be soverign, they should have guns and the government should not. An attempt was made to so arrange things here, but it didn't work out that way.

I agree.

[Viv]

Ah, then it's settled. It's ok if only the police and army have guns, if it's 'your' police and army.

I think that if the people are supposed to be soverign, they should have guns and the government should not. An attempt was made to so arrange things here, but it didn't work out that way.

Why did it not work? Isn't that anarchy?

[ciaranxavier]

The problem is, there will always be those who break the law, and it's easy to get a gun illegally. Not just in America, either; if you have the money, you can get a gun in just about any country.

That's why we need guns. Criminals are going to get them anyways. Removing guns from the hands of the average civilian leaves guns in the hands of two groups: the criminals, and the government. It is quite possible that at some point in your life you will need to defend yourself from one or the other. I'd like to point out that Hitler quashed rebellions in Denmark, Norway, and Poland by forbidding any non German citizen in those countries to own a firearm of any kind and enforcing it with the death penalty. A well armed populace can help stop the creation of a tyrannical regime.

so your solution to the current gun problem is to arm everybody??? because we have criminals everyone should have a gun? this could only lead to more problems. i watched a doc. by i believe it was the fifth estate showing how easy it is for americans to get guns and that the ease of ownership is fueling a gun trade to mexico. now that the gangs in mexico have the high powered guns that they wouldnt have if they hadnt the easy access to american weapons, the police force in mexico cant match the force of the gangs. leading to more casualties in the police force there. im not against gun ownership im for STRICT REGULATIONS. and i mean STRICT.

A well armed populace can help stop the creation of a tyrannical regime.

or it can lead to anarchy.

[bay]

but it doesn't lead to anarchy red plough. It leads to freedom. Government cannot run slipshod over people who can defend themselves. I'm a pacifist by nature, always prefer negotiations and I give in a lot to keep the peace in my personal life. But if my family or horses are threatened, watch out, mama bear takes no prisoners. I had to get to mid life before I accepted having a gun in my personal space.

I ask you again to study the American Revolutionary War. It was a rag tag band of guerilla fighters who were eventually made into something of an army by George Washington. The average joe colonist had a gun and ammo for every day survival. The brits wanted desperately to unarm the colonists. The boston tea party was about more than taxation without representation.

If they had managed to take away guns from the colonists then we likely would have pictures of Queen Elizabeth on our money today.

Every society who has surrendered it's weapons has been subjugated.

I would say if you want the Brits out of northern Ireland, then allow the populace to be armed. that would scare the beejeebers outa them. Why do you think the second amendment is such a big fookin deal in this country? It's what won us our independence from Britain.

Allowing guns to be legal does not mean that everyone will have or want one. Doesn't mean that people will go down the street shooting each other. That is sooooo overblown in the movies and news that the rest of the world gets a really warped view of America.

Yes, I've got a handgun. i do not carry it everywhere with me. It's in my house for personal defense and because I've learned that I really enjoy target shooting. if I didn't have a zillion other things going on in my life I might get into competition shooting cause it's quite a challenge and it's pretty zen like actually.

I don't carry it in my vehicle, don't carry it in my purse. I would have to have a concealed carry permit to do that. A permit requires a lot of cash and a lot of classes, which is a good thing, IMHO.

The statistics in this country show that the cities with the STRICTEST gun laws are the ones that have the MOST gun violence. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

A local deputy who answered one of my many calls to the sheriff's office about my ex took me aside and told me, "you didn't hear this from me, but get a gun and learn how to use it." He was telling me they are too far away to help me.

[Gareth]

Guns in peoples hands is the reason these school and college campus shootings occur. The 2nd Amendment is an outdated law from revolutionary period of time, it should be got rid of before we see another shooting.

[bay]

the whole p;oint is gareth it won't end school shootings. That's an attitude issue not a gun issue. when I was a kid, the farm boys drove their trucks to school with rifles in a rifle holder in the cab of the truck. There was never a shooting that I ever heard of. Almost all kids carried pocketknives. Was not a biggie. No one ever thought of using them on each other. Thehy were for important things, like cutting string.

somehow society has gotten all skewed.

outlawing guns for civilians won't solve that problem. the people who want to shoot to kill will still get guns gareth.

did you read above

the cities in america iwth the toughest gun laws (i.e., no handguns allowed) have the worst violent crime statistics.

[Gareth]

It will end school shootings trust me. Has there been a school or college shooting in Ireland recently? The only cases I've heard of are in Finland and Germany in the EU which have reasonably lax gun laws. Tighten up or you'll regret it.

the cities in america iwth the toughest gun laws (i.e., no handguns allowed) have the worst violent crime statistics.

Because they can get them legally out of town or cross state. National ban is the way forward.

[bay]

yea maybe so gareth

but you still have part of your country under occupation. I guess what's more important, freedom or safety?

[Gareth]

It's not under occupation if the majority of the citizens there wish to be a part of the UK. Have you been to Northern Ireland at all? Occupation under consent perhaps?

This is off topic however.

Gun laws in the US have caused chaos and continue to cause chaos. This is why they must be confiscated from those who live in cities, and those who do not use them for hunting purposes.

[bay]

oooooh,

confiscation sounds pretty heavy handed

this little rebel does not do well with authority

[LARKIN32]

ofcourse the six counties are under occupation garet,
still what as this got to do with gun laws...
as for usa,and its gun laws...take a look at canada... a much more pleasante place to LIVE safely.

[Gareth]

As long as a majority support British rule, it is not occupation.

I couldn't trust being on the street knowing that everyone has a gun.... It'd be a bit wierd.

oooooh,

confiscation sounds pretty heavy handed

this little rebel does not do well with authority

Not to be too blunt, but it seems in many regards this is the choice.

Confiscated or dead?

[donquixote99]

I couldn't trust being on the street knowing that everyone has a gun.... It'd be a bit wierd.


Well, one would get used to it. But that's not how it is here, of course....

[donquixote99]

as for usa,and its gun laws...take a look at canada... a much more pleasante place to LIVE safely.

The USA is not all one sort of place, you know. There are huge areas of the US that are pretty Canada-like, in crime rates if not in accents....

I might mention Dupage Country, Illinois. It's a suburban district right next to Chicago. About a million people live there. In a typical year the murder rate will be perfectly Canadian--maybe 10 or 12 cases. In the year 2000 there were none at all.

Here's the funny part--the people there are by European standards armed to the teeth. Guns are completely legal, and very common (in folk's houses, not carried so much...) So the question is, if there really is a thing properly called 'gun crime,' why don't all these guns cause a bunch of it?

I think the term should always be 'people crime,' or 'crime,' for short. I've never heard of a gun committing a crime.

[Phædrus]

so your solution to the current gun problem is to arm everybody??? because we have criminals everyone should have a gun? this could only lead to more problems. i watched a doc. by i believe it was the fifth estate showing how easy it is for americans to get guns and that the ease of ownership is fueling a gun trade to mexico. now that the gangs in mexico have the high powered guns that they wouldnt have if they hadnt the easy access to american weapons, the police force in mexico cant match the force of the gangs. leading to more casualties in the police force there. im not against gun ownership im for STRICT REGULATIONS. and i mean STRICT.

or it can lead to anarchy.

For the record, that high powered part is bullshit. Higher powered guns are shit for crime. Do you know what the most common caliber used in crime is? .25 ACP. Because you obviously don't know much about guns, I'll just say that that's halfway in bore-size and power between .22 LR (just about the weakest rifle/pistol round there is) and .32 ACP (which is an okay cartridge).

I'm sure you're one of those people who think that terrorists walk around shooting down airplanes with .50BMG sniper rifles too.

[donquixote99]

Oh, having read Phædrus' "firearms facts" post, I can observe that Dupage county's base murder rate, at .01 per 1000, is significantly LOWER than most areas in Canada.

[Phædrus]

Oh, having read Phædrus' "firearms facts" post, I can observe that Dupage county's base murder rate, at .01 per 1000, is significantly LOWER than most areas in Canada.

And Canada has looser gun laws than the US, with few exceptions. Yet the US has the higher crime and murder rate.

It's culture, not guns. Guns, at most, are a symptom.

[ciaranxavier]

Guns in peoples hands is the reason these school and college campus shootings occur. The 2nd Amendment is an outdated law from revolutionary period of time, it should be got rid of before we see another shooting.

exactly i mean the parents who didnt lock those guns up properly or the store owner who sold them guns should be serving life sentences for shit like that. on top of the kids who committed the crime if they didnt kill themselves too.

[ciaranxavier]

For the record, that high powered part is bullshit. Higher powered guns are shit for crime. Do you know what the most common caliber used in crime is? .25 ACP. Because you obviously don't know much about guns, I'll just say that that's halfway in bore-size and power between .22 LR (just about the weakest rifle/pistol round there is) and .32 ACP (which is an okay cartridge).

I'm sure you're one of those people who think that terrorists walk around shooting down airplanes with .50BMG sniper rifles too.

no im talking about the mexicans running around with carbine rifles and AK's high powered enough to go through a cops vest. im knowledgable enough that i have my license. and how can you assume so much about me?

[ciaranxavier]

And Canada has looser gun laws than the US, with few exceptions. Yet the US has the higher crime and murder rate.

It's culture, not guns. Guns, at most, are a symptom.

canada does not have looser gun laws. you should make sure what your preaching is fact.

[Phædrus]

no im talking about the mexicans running around with carbine rifles and AK's high powered enough to go through a cops vest. im knowledgable enough that i have my license. and how can you assume so much about me?

You don't need an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest. At 25 yards, a 9mm will do just fine. .45 ACP, .357 MAG, and .44 MAG do even better. At closer ranges, even a .32 ACP or 9mm short will penetrate. As for rifles, a .30-06 hunting rifle will penetrate kevlar at greater ranges (up to 150 yards) and more reliably than a 7.62x39mm rifle will (maybe 100 yards, tops).

And I'm not sure the Mexicans are getting AK-47's. You don't see a whole lot of those in the States. They're not banned (the semi-autos, at least), but they aren't extremely widespread either. At most, I could see the Mexicans getting SKS's and AR-15's.

Since you don't know that you don't need carbines or "AK's" to penetrate kevlar, I think I can assume at least a bit.



Also, I don't advocate total lack of gun control. My scheme:
- If you are convicted of a violent felony offense or an offense involving a firearm, you cannot own firearms for at least a minimum period (five - ten years), and not after that without a judge's consent.
- If you have a violent mental disorder (schizophrenia, paranoia, sociopathic, whatever), you cannot own a firearm.
- No person under 18 years of age may own a firearm or fire one outside of a designated shooting area in the presence of an adult.
- When you buy a gun, five day waiting period before you can pick it up.
- A federal ID is required to purchase a firearm.
- All gun dealers must be federally licensed; those without a license can receive 10 - 25 years in jail.
- Automatic weapons can be procured, but only after a thorough FBI and state background check, and the buyer must pay a tax on it.
- Ditto for weapons with muzzle energies of greater than 10,000 foot-pounds


That's not unreasonable, is it?

[ciaranxavier]

You don't need an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest. At 25 yards, a 9mm will do just fine. .45 ACP, .357 MAG, and .44 MAG do even better. At closer ranges, even a .32 ACP or 9mm short will penetrate. As for rifles, a .30-06 hunting rifle will penetrate kevlar at greater ranges (up to 150 yards) and more reliably than a 7.62x39mm rifle will (maybe 100 yards, tops).

And I'm not sure the Mexicans are getting AK-47's. You don't see a whole lot of those in the States. They're not banned (the semi-autos, at least), but they aren't extremely widespread either. At most, I could see the Mexicans getting SKS's and AR-15's.

Since you don't know that you don't need carbines or "AK's" to penetrate kevlar, I think I can assume at least a bit.



Also, I don't advocate total lack of gun control. My scheme:
- If you are convicted of a violent felony offense or an offense involving a firearm, you cannot own firearms for at least a minimum period (five - ten years), and not after that without a judge's consent.
- If you have a violent mental disorder (schizophrenia, paranoia, sociopathic, whatever), you cannot own a firearm.
- No person under 18 years of age may own a firearm or fire one outside of a designated shooting area in the presence of an adult.
- When you buy a gun, five day waiting period before you can pick it up.
- A federal ID is required to purchase a firearm.
- All gun dealers must be federally licensed; those without a license can receive 10 - 25 years in jail.
- Automatic weapons can be procured, but only after a thorough FBI and state background check, and the buyer must pay a tax on it.
- Ditto for weapons with muzzle energies of greater than 10,000 foot-pounds


That's not unreasonable, is it?

You don't need an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest. At 25 yards, a 9mm will do just fine. .45 ACP, .357 MAG, and .44 MAG do even better. At closer ranges, even a .32 ACP or 9mm short will penetrate. As for rifles, a .30-06 hunting rifle will penetrate kevlar at greater ranges (up to 150 yards) and more reliably than a 7.62x39mm rifle will (maybe 100 yards, tops).

im quite aware im telling you the examples used in the documentary i watched.

Since you don't know that you don't need carbines or "AK's" to penetrate kevlar, I think I can assume at least a bit.

when did i say or even insenuate that i didnt know this? and i was quite aware of that.

That's not unreasonable, is it?

no but more needs to be done then that.

[Phædrus]

You don't need an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest. At 25 yards, a 9mm will do just fine. .45 ACP, .357 MAG, and .44 MAG do even better. At closer ranges, even a .32 ACP or 9mm short will penetrate. As for rifles, a .30-06 hunting rifle will penetrate kevlar at greater ranges (up to 150 yards) and more reliably than a 7.62x39mm rifle will (maybe 100 yards, tops).

im quite aware im telling you the examples used in the documentary i watched.
Okay.

Since you don't know that you don't need carbines or "AK's" to penetrate kevlar, I think I can assume at least a bit.

when did i say or even insenuate that i didnt know this? and i was quite aware of that.

Well, there was this: "im talking about the mexicans running around with carbine rifles and AK's high powered enough to go through a cops vest." Which implies that you need something as high-powered as an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest.

That's not unreasonable, is it?

no but more needs to be done then that.

I think it's adequate. You're not going to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, not in the US, not any time soon. What I propose will stop some of the more dangerous members of society from legally getting a firearm.

What regulations do you support? Short of a full ban, that is.

[ciaranxavier]

Okay.



Well, there was this: "im talking about the mexicans running around with carbine rifles and AK's high powered enough to go through a cops vest." Which implies that you need something as high-powered as an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest.



I think it's adequate. You're not going to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, not in the US, not any time soon. What I propose will stop some of the more dangerous members of society from legally getting a firearm.

What regulations do you support? Short of a full ban, that is.


Well, there was this: "im talking about the mexicans running around with carbine rifles and AK's high powered enough to go through a cops vest." Which implies that you need something as high-powered as an AK-47 to get through a kevlar vest.

what i was trying to say before you attempted to slanderize my knowledge without knowing anything about me was that they are far superior in fire power compared to the cops. and the AK'S and carbines give them that advantage. yes handguns may or may not pierce a bulletproof vest given calibre and distance but and AK or carbine WILL pierce a bulletproof vest, and they fire a hell of a lot rounds more quickly then a cop with a handgun.

I think it's adequate. You're not going to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, not in the US, not any time soon. What I propose will stop some of the more dangerous members of society from legally getting a firearm.

know what you propose will punish those who have been caught for their crimes.

What regulations do you support? Short of a full ban, that is.

Prohibited Firearm: Fully automatic military assault weapons, semi-automatics which can be converted to automatics, along with a few other selected models not suitable for hunting or target shooting, short-barreled handguns, sawed-off shotguns and large capacity magazines. In most cases, the previous owners of these weapons were grandfathered when the prohibitions went into effect, in lieu of financial compensation.

Licensing Requirements: Under the Firearms Act, all firearm owners will require a license to possess or acquire by the year 2001 (renewable every five years). Standard safety checks will be performed to ensure that the individual does not pose a risk to public safety. Under current regulations, spouses and previous spouses with whom the applicant has lived within the last two years. will also be notified of the individuals’ application. If someone with a license becomes violent or commits a crime that would make them illegible to own firearms, the Chief Firearms Officer will be able to revoke the license.

Registration Requirements: Under the new Firearms Act, all firearms must be registered (by the year 2003). New firearms will be registered at their point of sale and imported firearms will be registered at their point of entry. Every registration certificate will have a Firearms Identification Number (FIN). For firearms which do not have a unique identifier (those which have no serial number or have a serial number that, with the other characteristics of the firearm, still doesn’t identify them from every other gun), these are assigned a FIN which is affixed to the frame or received of the firearm. However, according to expert opinion at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, at least 80% of firearms can be uniquely identified for the purpose of registration. A range of technologies are available for identifying weapons which lack serial numbers including invisible labeling (often used for identifying other valuables). The duplication or absence of serial numbers is not considered to be a serious impediment to proceeding and will be resolved over time as pressure is brought to bear on manufacturers to ensure their products conform with national standards.

Storage Requirements: Firearms must be stored unloaded, with the ammunition separate. For handguns and other restricted weapons, the firearms must be stored in a locked container, unloaded and made inoperable (trigger locked), with the ammunition stored separately.

Training Requirements: All license applicants must take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course and/or pass the test for the course, or show by some other approved means that they know about firearms laws and safety practices.

i support canadas gun control laws, though i do think stricter sentences should be imposed then those that already have been. its not 100% what a ibelieve but its close.

[donquixote99]

I'll admit there have been more frequent than before 'mass campus shootings,' but the thing is still a rare occurance. I don't think such exceptional events that affect, on the national scale, a tiny number of individuals, should drive the design of gun policy imposed on 300,000,000 citizens.

[ciaranxavier]

I'll admit there have been more frequent than before 'mass campus shootings,' but the thing is still a rare occurance. I don't think such exceptional events that affect, on the national scale, a tiny number of individuals, should drive the design of gun policy imposed on 300,000,000 citizens.

its not school shootings that drive the people to need more gun control its the amount of gun related crimes in general that point to the need for more gun controls.

[bay]

...take a look at canada... a much more pleasante place to LIVE safely.


larkin, that's really a subjective statement. "Pleasant" is in the eye of the beholder. I've been to places in Canada that were indeed pleasant and places that were not. Such a sweeping statement, sigh.....

[quirk]

larkin, that's really a subjective statement. "Pleasant" is in the eye of the beholder. I've been to places in Canada that were indeed pleasant and places that were not. Such a sweeping statement, sigh.....

Though there is much less gun crime and probably crime in general. I think thats the point Larkin was making.

[quirk]

I think the people should be armed and it is something I would like to see happen. An armed people can defend itself and I think Iraq is a good example of this. If there had been strict gun laws there during Saddams time then I think it would have been much harder for the resistance initially.

If guns where legalised here I dont think it will increase crime massively as criminals can get access to guns if they want, however there might be a small increase due to the fact that people who may carry out an opportunistic crime or those who are crazy would then have access to weapons they didnt previously have.

[Gareth]

Iraq is a good example of chaos. It's ridiculous.

[LARKIN32]

.....................

It's culture, not guns. Guns, at most, are a symptom.quite right.
it makes you think,no?

[Enver]

Iraq is a good example of chaos. It's ridiculous.

But you can see, as quirk pointed out, the benefit of the availability of weapons there.

The resistance to the invasion may not have been as successful otherwise.

[Gareth]

The availiability of weapons has served no benefits than to cause the deaths of several through suicide bombings, mostly Iraqis. I don't see how such barbarism can be supported. I disagree with Bush etc, but this is also detestable.

[Enver]

The availiability of weapons has served no benefits than to cause the deaths of several through suicide bombings, mostly Iraqis. I don't see how such barbarism can be supported. I disagree with Bush etc, but this is also detestable.

Did I say I supported suicide bombings or any attacks against civilians?

[Gareth]

that's what this "resistance" causes!

[Enver]

that's what this "resistance" causes!

So how do you explain the thousands of casualties suffered by the coalition forces and their Iraqi cronies? Most of the suicide bombings are carried out by Sunni terrorist groups and the horrendous mass shootings and decapitations etc. are largely carried out by Shi'ite reactionaries in the Iraqi police and military. I only support legitimate attacks against the occupation forces and their supporters in both Afghanistan and Iraq, but you probably regard such activity as criminal.

[Gareth]

You seem to think I support the coalition troops. I think however that there is no point of resistance, they should co-operate with their new independent government and move forward. Guns and more guns will do no good at all. Negotiations must be exhausted if one is to argue for the use of a Casus Belli in my opinion.

[Enver]

You seem to think I support the coalition troops. I think however that there is no point of resistance, they should co-operate with their new independent government and move forward.

Should the French have co-operated with the Vichy government? Given your views on the British occupation of Ireland it would be inconsistent on your part to suggest otherwise.

Guns and more guns will do no good at all. Negotiations must be exhausted if one is to argue for the use of a Casus Belli in my opinion.

Negotiate to what end? Do you honestly believe the US-led occupation is interested in negotiating about a potential withdrawal?

[Gareth]

Should the French have co-operated with the Vichy government? Given your views on the British occupation of Ireland it would be inconsistent on your part to suggest otherwise.

In terms of saving bloodshed, and in terms of seeking peace, I'd say absolutely. Borders and control of nation alters all the time. I will submit to rule, as rule is not what I am concerned with. There are more important things than control of land. I'd have negotiated with the Third Reich in terms of finding a solution especially in relation to the Jews.


Negotiate to what end? Do you honestly believe the US-led occupation is interested in negotiating about a potential withdrawal?

Yes, I think they would be if a long term peace was guaranteed and a zero tolerance policy against Islamic extremism was applied.

[Enver]

In terms of saving bloodshed, and in terms of seeking peace, I'd say absolutely. Borders and control of nation alters all the time. I will submit to rule, as rule is not what I am concerned with. There are more important things than control of land. I'd have negotiated with the Third Reich in terms of finding a solution especially in relation to the Jews.

Submit to the Vichy French? Negoiate with the Third Reich? Now I have heard it all. Some Christian you are.

Yes

Then you clearly do not understand the purpose of imperialist conquest.

a zero tolerance policy against Islamic extremism was applied.

Ah but Nazism and fascism is acceptable.

Is Christian extremism allowed?

[Gareth]

Submit to the Vichy French? Negoiate with the Third Reich? Now I have heard it all. Some Christian you are.



Then you clearly do not understand the purpose of imperialist conquest.



Ah but Nazism and fascism is acceptable.

Is Christian extremism allowed?

Bear in mind Christians had worked to save the Jews in Holland and had remained peacefully in the Reich. Many German Christians took Jews into their homes at risk of their lives.

However the World War 2 situation was one where the policy of Appeasement and negotiation had all but failed. That is arguably a legitimate war.

[An Céachta Dearg]

And Canada has looser gun laws than the US, with few exceptions. Yet the US has the higher crime and murder rate.

It's culture, not guns. Guns, at most, are a symptom.

Then remove the gun from that culture if that is the attidtude and culture that exists.

[Enver]

Then remove the gun from that culture if that is the attidtude and culture that exists.

How?

[An Céachta Dearg]

How?

Confiscation and federal laws making gun possesion a very serious offence punishable by long spells of imprisonment and huge fines

[Enver]

Confiscation and federal laws making gun possesion a very serious offence punishable by long spells of imprisonment and huge fines

http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1668162_GunControl.jpg

[Gareth]

http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1668162_GunControl.jpg

I might as well say danke schön, and say that if gun control means I'm a Nazi, I'm gladly a Nazi.

[Enver]

I might as well say danke schön, and say that if gun control means I'm a Nazi, I'm gladly a Nazi.

You'll like this one even better....

http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1668230_MyChoice.jpg

[Gareth]

I'm sure the baby who will soon be joining the 57,000,000 abortions this year will have self defence too?

Does the child have a say in their body just out of curiosity? Or does the will of the more developed humans supersede the less developed?

[Enver]

I'm sure the baby who will soon be joining the 57,000,000 abortions this year will have self defence too?

Does the child have a say in their body just out of curiosity? Or does the will of the more developed humans supersede the less developed?

It's not a human, it's a clump of cells.

[Gareth]

It's not a human, it's a clump of cells.

Hmm, a new way of demeaning a being with a heart by that stage of development.

57,000,000 just think about the number?

[Phædrus]

So how do you explain the thousands of casualties suffered by the coalition forces and their Iraqi cronies? Most of the suicide bombings are carried out by Sunni terrorist groups and the horrendous mass shootings and decapitations etc. are largely carried out by Shi'ite reactionaries in the Iraqi police and military. I only support legitimate attacks against the occupation forces and their supporters in both Afghanistan and Iraq, but you probably regard such activity as criminal.

Do you mean like Matt Maupin?

You, "comrade," have just scored five points in the asshole book.

[Enver]

Do you mean like Matt Maupin?

You, "comrade," have just scored five points in the asshole book.

What about thousands of murdered Iraqi children?

Do you know all their names too?

If Canada invaded the US tomorrow do you think it would be illegitimate or criminal for ordinary US citizens to oppose them? You're experienced in the use of firearms; would you not use your weapons to defend your home, your family or your town?

[Gareth]

I'd personally look for a peaceful solution first. You're too facinated with arms Enver.

[Enver]

I'd personally look for a peaceful solution first. You're too facinated with arms Enver.

Well my fetish for arms is what attracted me to Republicanism in the first place.

I get moist just thinking about men in balaclavas holding assault rifles.

[bay]

happiness is a warm gun, eh enver???

[An Céachta Dearg]

It's not a human, it's a clump of cells.


You could use the same argument then for murdering an innocent person Enver that is what we all are a clump of cells, its all about chromosones

[An Céachta Dearg]

Well my fetish for arms is what attracted me to Republicanism in the first place.

I get moist just thinking about men in balaclavas holding assault rifles.

Aye the typical person who just want violence. Don't give peace a chance and we wont get the republic promised in 1916

[donquixote99]

Confiscation and federal laws making gun possesion a very serious offence punishable by long spells of imprisonment and huge fines

Uh-huh. After all, such measures have been so successful in eliminating illegal drug use....

[bay]

Enver,

that picture looks like the girl is clueless...

ya need one like this

http://www.womenandguns.com/0308issue/pix0308/WGcover0308med2.jpg




Chicks are good.
Chicks with guns are better.
http://www.womenandguns.com/

[Enver]

Aye the typical person who just want violence. Don't give peace a chance and we wont get the republic promised in 1916

Would that be the Republic that was declared in arms by the Provisional government and defended by the Irish Republican Army?

[Enver]

Chicks with guns are better.

I have to say I agree....

http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1670920_CIMG3374sized.jpg

[bay]

societies without guns are controlled by societies with guns.

[Gareth]

Would that be the Republic that was declared in arms by the Provisional government and defended by the Irish Republican Army?

That most of the general populace actually disagreed with at the time according to history?

[Enver]

That most of the general populace actually disagreed with at the time according to history?

Yup.

As Ed Maloney rightly pointed out; the contemporary organisation that best compares to the Easter rebels is the (Real) IRA. It's recorded that people spat on the Volunteers as they were brought through the streets of Dublin. When the Rising broke out my local town Dun Laoghaire was black with Union Jack flags.