thoughts on the impending return of a messiah?

[LARKIN32]

i was wondering if anyone has any info on the supposed return of jesus.
i hear some christians,or evangelists/fundamentalists ,especially in america view this as a certainty.and the reason for them ssupporting the state , of isreal.apparently jesus or a messiah will appear and create this state in the mideast or somewhere.at the same time 'some' religious jews who see the character of jesus as being a charlatan(etc),are also waiting on a messiah appearing...
wondered if anyone has any seroius thoughts,on this topic?

[bay]

well, it's been impending for 2008 years now. I'm not holding my breath.

[LARKIN32]

you seem to be sceptical about it then ...:)

[bay]

spirituality vs religion

[Gareth]

The Messiah will return, however it will be like a "thief in the night" i.e unexpected time, and only the Father knows when it will happen. Asides from this, we have to decipher the Revelation to John, and look to references by Paul and in the Gospels.

[Enver]

The Messiah will return, however it will be like a "thief in the night" i.e unexpected time, and only the Father knows when it will happen. Asides from this, we have to decipher the Revelation to John, and look to references by Paul and in the Gospels.

He's not coming back. People generally can't come back from the dead.

[Gareth]

He was ascended to heaven in full living form. I'm highly confident that it will happen.

[Enver]

He was ascended to heaven in full living form. I'm highly confident that it will happen.

How did he do that?

Where does heaven exist; inside or outside our universe or both (impossible!)?

It must have been God's anti-science rays at work again.

[Gareth]

Heaven is not of this world.

God created the world with its physical confines, I believe He has the power to influence them or manipulate them for a certain function.

anti-science rays? - However if God were the creator He would be the creator of science also.

[Enver]

Heaven is not of this world.

God created the world with its physical confines, I believe He has the power to influence them or manipulate them for a certain function.

anti-science rays? - However if God were the creator He would be the creator of science also.

We have a reasonable understanding of the laws of the universe. We also know that if they were even the slightest bit different, life would not be possible. So tell me, how is it that God is able to bend the rules, as such? And why would he create these laws when he must have known he was going to have to break them?

[Gareth]

God has made the world to be adequate for our existence. We do not have a need to break these physical boundaries and indeed if we did life wouldn't be the way it is you are correct. However do you not thin that if God created the physical confines of the world He would not be able to influence them? Not only does he know how to influence them, He knows absolutely everything about the physics of the world as He has intended for it to be this way.

[Viv]

Why would anyone come back here, who had escaped it? It is a mess. People killing each other, aggression, half of us starving while the other half lives off them like parasites and do not care to do anything to equalise the situation, with some selfish, hugely wealthy, grey men at the top overseeing the whole thing to their own advantage.

If I were the boss of all this, I would not show my face. I would be embarrassed to do so.

If he (oh, it will be a he!) does ever have the brass to show up here in person and let himself be known, which I doubt, a few of us observers will have some serious f***n questions to ask him and some serious calling to account for the horrors he has allowed to be inflicted on innocents.

Whoever he is, he is an ass.

[Gareth]

Nobody could have ever killed Christ for sure.

The boss of all this? Humans by their very nature are disobedient.
(http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74487665)
A few of you "observers" need to put serious questions to yourselves and others I think, if we are to be realistic and stop using scapegoats.

[Viv]

Nobody could have ever killed Christ for sure.

The boss of all this? Humans by their very nature are disobedient.
(http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74487665)
A few of you "observers" need to put serious questions to yourselves and others I think, if we are to be realistic and stop using scapegoats.

Hahhh...you call the realists amongst us unrealistic. This from you, who believe in the man in the sky.

I will disobey you by not reading your link, because I am human and like that. I am like that because if there is a guy who created all this mess, he messed me up and made me disobedient.

Believing 2+2=4 is realistic, because that is true and can be proven. Believing 2+2=3.05 because you have been told it should be, even when you know the fact is that it cannot be proven, is unrealistic.

Religious belief is neither rational nor realistic. There is no verifiable evidence which supports a basis of scientific truth. There is only dogma, brainwashing and experiential evidence which is only valid to the person who experiences it.

In reply to the OP, I have heard the year 2012 mentioned as the date for the return.

[bay]

In reply to the OP, I have heard the year 2012 mentioned as the date for the return.

Relilgious fortune tellers have come up with new dates every century. My ex FIL and MIL sold all their belongings, quit their jobs, and waited to be raptured on one of those dates in the 1970s. They were kind of like, well sheeeeeeet when it didn't happen and they had to go back to work.

[Gareth]

For the pure reason that a date has been said, it means that it will not happen that year. It will come like a "thief in the night".

[Gareth]

Believing 2+2=4 is realistic, because that is true and can be proven. Believing 2+2=3.05 because you have been told it should be, even when you know the fact is that it cannot be proven,

I haven't seen anyone prove that 2 + 2 = 4.

I think it is more illogical to believe that the earth follows a conclusive natural pattern that continues on every day the same way. There are several things that are in society that aren't natural, such as clothing etc. That means that human reason has dominated nature, that in itself as a form of supernature. People never think of that though.

And when two people are in an argument, why does one always appeal to the other that they should know better? Where does the source of this come from. It must be that they are appealing to an external sense of morality that exists outside of this world.

This is how C.S Lewis helped in understanding some of these complicated questions. I'd reccommend Mere Christianity and Miracles.

Also I think that believing that the world is how it is without any case of design, is just impossible to believe. It's actually illogical to me.

[Viv]

Relilgious fortune tellers have come up with new dates every century. My ex FIL and MIL sold all their belongings, quit their jobs, and waited to be raptured on one of those dates in the 1970s. They were kind of like, well sheeeeeeet when it didn't happen and they had to go back to work.

LMAO...

I would go an that assumption...that the dates predicted mean absolutely nothing and have no basis whatsoever in fact...:D

[Gareth]

The thing is they mean absolutely nothing given theology and Biblical references either.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Nobody could have ever killed Christ for sure.

The boss of all this? Humans by their very nature are disobedient.
(http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74487665)
A few of you "observers" need to put serious questions to yourselves and others I think, if we are to be realistic and stop using scapegoats.

Gareth there are historical record of Jesus dying on the cross. These come from local Jesus historians and the official Roman historian to Judea at the time. However their is no official historical records of Jesus post ressurection. The only records that exist are those of the apostles and disciples of Christ, hardly the most objective or reliable of sources.

How can you make a sweeping statement to say humans are by their very nature disobiediant? Define disobiediant please...

[Gareth]

Well I'm discussing it in respect to the Biblical narrative. They are prone to fall to sin, or in a secular respect they are always prone to make mistakes or to fall to what is evil. Don't you agree?

[An Céachta Dearg]

Well I'm discussing it in respect to the Biblical narrative. They are prone to fall to sin, or in a secular respect they are always prone to make mistakes or to fall to what is evil. Don't you agree?


If secularism can remove Religious dogmas and empower the lower classes in their struggle for equality and the fulfilment of their potential then how in any context can that be classed as evil?

[Gareth]

No that isn't what I was saying. I was explaining what I meant in secular language. I don't agree with secularism but I'm reasonably happy in this country for now.

[An Céachta Dearg]

No that isn't what I was saying. I was explaining what I meant in secular language. I don't agree with secularism but I'm reasonably happy in this country for now.

The thing about secularism Gareth is you still get people with opposing views. Like I'am most likely Agnostic however I'am still very Anti-Abortion.

[Viv]

Well I'm discussing it in respect to the Biblical narrative. They are prone to fall to sin, or in a secular respect they are always prone to make mistakes or to fall to what is evil. Don't you agree?

No. What is defined as a mistake? 90% of what religious people regard as mistakes are ok behaviour to atheists...

[Gareth]

Thats where the main issue falls. I do not think morality is relative. I take a very much Socratic / C.S Lewis view of universal morality.

[ciaranxavier]

He was ascended to heaven in full living form. I'm highly confident that it will happen.

are you also confident pigs will fly. oh wait im your jesus bow before me.

[Gareth]

Good argument, however the Bible say all will see Jesus come and know that it is Him. So unfortunately you don't fit this category.

[ciaranxavier]

Good argument, however the Bible say all will see Jesus come and know that it is Him. So unfortunately you don't fit this category.

and how will everyone in the world see him come at the same time?

[Gareth]

That will have to be seen.

[ciaranxavier]

That will have to be seen.

you must have some theories.

[LARKIN32]

If secularism can remove Religious dogmas and empower the lower classes in their struggle for equality and the fulfilment of their potential then how in any context can that be classed as evil?class:)

[An Céachta Dearg]

class:)

haha cheek!

[Lightweaver]

and how will everyone in the world see him come at the same time?

Magick! :D

[Enver]

I think it is more illogical to believe that the earth follows a conclusive natural pattern that continues on every day the same way.

Well you're wrong in that view I'm afraid.

Christianity is as realistic as CS Lewis' many great fantasy tales. :P

[LARKIN32]

gareth sounds as progressive in his thoughts as is ideals.

[Gareth]

Well you're wrong in that view I'm afraid.

Christianity is as realistic as CS Lewis' many great fantasy tales. :P

Humans have constantly invented things and brought what was not natural into a world that was originally natural. Funny that you should mention C.S Lewis as this is based on what I read from his Christian philosophy. Humans have colonised the world with reason, which come from a supernatural source as these things were not originally in nature. Therefore you cannot deny that there is a supernatural influence, even with the presence of humankind alone in the world today.

[Lightweaver]

Humans have colonised the world with reason, which come from a supernatural source as these things were not originally in nature. Therefore you cannot deny that there is a supernatural influence, even with the presence of humankind alone in the world today.

Interesting syllogism, although I'm not sure I agree with the idea of reason having a supernatural influence. Could you expand on that?

[Viv]

and how will everyone in the world see him come at the same time?

Um...television? The web? It's surely not an issue for HIMself. Bill Gates could probably manage it at a push...for those who are interested in watching, I'm sure HE could do it.

[Gareth]

Lightweaver: By humans using their reasoning skills, they have applied foreign ideas to what was a once natural world. It's a notable part in C.S Lewis' Miracles.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Lightweaver: By humans using their reasoning skills, they have applied foreign ideas to what was a once natural world. It's a notable part in C.S Lewis' Miracles.

And that is down to science and not too God.

[Gareth]

Of course, I've merely given an example of how things foreign to nature or supernatural already exist in our world. This is actually the start of C.S Lewis's argument. I should really look over the book again to get some ideas for you.

[bay]

We do not want schools....
they will teach us to have churches.
We do not want churches....
they will teach us to quarrel about God.
We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes
about things on this earth,
but we never quarrel about God.
We do not want to learn that.

Heinmot Tooyalaket ( Chief Joseph), Nez Perce Leader

[Viv]

Of course, I've merely given an example of how things foreign to nature or supernatural already exist in our world. This is actually the start of C.S Lewis's argument. I should really look over the book again to get some ideas for you.

What are you on about? If it's developed naturally and scientifically, it is not supernatural. Development through logic is natural, evolution is natural, creativity is natural.

[Chookie]

Good argument, however the Bible say all will see Jesus come and know that it is Him. So unfortunately you don't fit this category.

Surely this statement shows the illogicality of your views, come on, "all will see Jesus come", followed immediately by "you don't fit this category". Not very Christian is it?

QWhere, incidentally is the guarantee that this Messiah will be Christian?

[ciaranxavier]

Surely this statement shows the illogicality of your views, come on, "all will see Jesus come", followed immediately by "you don't fit this category". Not very Christian is it?

QWhere, incidentally is the guarantee that this Messiah will be Christian?

i tried to explain that to him but his religious blinders are on. and i dont think he took them off yet.

[Gareth]

Surely this statement shows the illogicality of your views, come on, "all will see Jesus come", followed immediately by "you don't fit this category". Not very Christian is it?

QWhere, incidentally is the guarantee that this Messiah will be Christian?

Chookie: I meant it in the context that they didn't fit the category of Messiah, of which there are over 1,000 prophesies in the Old Testament. Not that they didn't fit the category of Christian. Apologies for all the misunderstanding not my intention.

There isn't a guarantee that the Messiah will be Christian, however ask yourself the question what religion was Jesus and you'll find the answer probably. The general Christian belief (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Christ Himself will come for a second time.

[BlackBaron]

i was wondering if anyone has any info on the supposed return of jesus.
i hear some christians,or evangelists/fundamentalists ,especially in america view this as a certainty.and the reason for them ssupporting the state , of isreal.apparently jesus or a messiah will appear and create this state in the mideast or somewhere.at the same time 'some' religious jews who see the character of jesus as being a charlatan(etc),are also waiting on a messiah appearing...
wondered if anyone has any seroius thoughts,on this topic?

Christianity and zionism cannot go together. "Christian" zionists are doing the work of the Ant-Christ.

Are you aware that many Palestinians are Christian?

THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM

Then there is the sign of the abomination of desolation and all that relates to the Temple in Jerusalem. For the first time in history, this has now become a possibility. The rebuilding of the Temple was tried only once before, in the fourth century. Knowing about this is a very good example of how reading Church history enlightens one. We can find several sources about it from the fourth century: St. Cyril mentions it, as do several of the Church historians at that time. Julian the Apostate, because he had such a passion to overthrow Christianity, decided that, since Christ had prophesied that not one stone of the Temple would be left on the other, if he rebuilt the Temple, he would prove that Christ was an impostor, and therefore paganism could be restored. So he deliberately invited the Jews back to Jerusalem, and they began building the Temple with the blessing of Julian the Apostate. They would build a little in the daytime, and the next morning they would come and all the stones would be on the ground. They tried again and balls of fire began to come out of the earth. All the historians agree on this. In fact, modern rationalist historians, because they see that they cannot deny the texts and that something did actually happen, begin to say things like, "They must have struck oil," or "There were underground gas flues." It was obviously a miracle of God to keep the Temple from being built, because it was not the time—the Temple is to be built only at the very end of the world. Anyway, they finally failed in their attempt and gave up the operation. Of the few stones that remained, not one was left on the other. So the prophecy was fulfilled in the time of Julian the Apostate.
But now, since 1967, the site where the Temple was before is now in the hands of the Jews. Therefore for the first time, it becomes quite possible that the Temple could be built. The only thing interfering is the great mosque which the Moslems have there. If that's destroyed, there will probably be a war.
Only since 1948 has there been a separate state of Jews in the Holy Land. It is to the unbelieving Jews that the Antichrist will come. He will come first to the Jews and then to the whole world through the Jews; and only as this is happening will the faithful remnant of Jews finally be converted to Christianity in the very last times.
So this sign of the Temple is a very big one. When we see the Temple being built, then we know that the time is at hand, because that is definitely one of the signs of the very end. So far, of course, it's not being built, but there are all kinds of rumors that plans have been laid, that stones are being gathered, etc. It's obvious that the Jews are thinking about it.

[Gareth]

BlackBaron: are you suggesting that Christians cannot support the existence of a state named Israel? or that you cannot support the State of Israel as it is?

[BlackBaron]

BlackBaron: are you suggesting that Christians cannot support the existence of a state named Israel? or that you cannot support the State of Israel as it is?

It is a sin to support the existence of the state of "Israel".

Hamas like Saddam Hussein did protect Christians and their Churches from attack.

Please do not tell me that you support the occupation of Palestine and the occupation of Iraq?

[Gareth]

How? Please show me a passage from the Bible to that extent that says you shall not support the existence of a country called Israel in the Middle East?

[BlackBaron]

How? Please show me a passage from the Bible to that extent that says you shall not support the existence of a country called Israel in the Middle East?

Because the state of Israel exists in order to re-build the Temple in Jerusalem....now who exactly does that?

Also I believe that stealing peoples land, preventing the Gospel being preached by the force of law, abortion on demand, destorying Churches, etc well isnt very Christian.

[Gareth]

if it intended to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem it could have easily done so after the 1967 War.

I disagree with the government of the State of Israel in many regards, but not Israels existence.

[LARKIN32]

How? Please show me a passage from the Bible to that extent that says you shall not support the existence of a country called Israel in the Middle East?
name me one that literally does...
... :rolleyes:

[BlackBaron]

if it intended to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem it could have easily done so after the 1967 War.

I disagree with the government of the State of Israel in many regards, but not Israels existence.

The Dome of the Rock is still there.

Do you know that the Holy Synod in Russia anathemized Napoleon as being potentially the Antichrist?

Why?

Because he was the first since Julian the Apostate to attempt to bring the jews back into Palestine. Thankfully he failed than because the time was not right.

Indeed it was the fact that Julian the Apostate brought the jews back into Palestine and had them starting to re-build the Temple before God intervened that convinced many of the Holy Fathers that he was indeed the Antichrist.

This is the Ancient Christian understanding.

I cannot support the only state in the Middle East where abortion is legal. I cannot support theft.

[Phædrus]

When your Messiah returns, will he hand out free beer? If so, ask him to make it a German brand, American beer tastes like piss. ;)

[LARKIN32]

hmmm.ancient brewing laws in holland and germany...quality

[ciaranxavier]

When your Messiah returns, will he hand out free beer? If so, ask him to make it a German brand, American beer tastes like piss. ;)

north american beer in general is piss. heineken is the cheapest import we can get here so its my brand. :)

[Gareth]

Why?

Because he was the first since Julian the Apostate to attempt to bring the jews back into Palestine. Thankfully he failed than because the time was not right.

Indeed it was the fact that Julian the Apostate brought the jews back into Palestine and had them starting to re-build the Temple before God intervened that convinced many of the Holy Fathers that he was indeed the Antichrist.

This is the Ancient Christian understanding.


Any Biblical references that suggest that a state named Israel cannot exist?

[LARKIN32]

Any Biblical references that suggest that a state named Israel cannot exist?is all your interest in palsetine because of religion.?

[Gareth]

is all your interest in palsetine because of religion.?

I'd be interested in the conflict regardless I think, however there is obviously an interest to keep and preserve religious sites among other things.

[LARKIN32]

EXACTLY...
and i'm for that

[Fascist]

John's Revelation is not a cipher predicting the end of the world. It is an allegorical message to the early church that was undergoing tremendous persecution. Most of the events and characters were references to the Roman empire and the emeror Diocletian who was a brutal enemy of the church. John wrote this to give people hope and encourage them to endure the pains they were undergoing at the end of the third century.

[Viv]

John's Revelation is not a cipher predicting the end of the world. It is an allegorical message to the early church that was undergoing tremendous persecution. Most of the events and characters were references to the Roman empire and the emeror Diocletian who was a brutal enemy of the church. John wrote this to give people hope and encourage them to endure the pains they were undergoing at the end of the third century.

So you are saying this is out of context.

Originally Posted by Gareth
The Messiah will return, however it will be like a "thief in the night" i.e unexpected time, and only the Father knows when it will happen. Asides from this, we have to decipher the Revelation to John, and look to references by Paul and in the Gospels

What is your view of the OP, Fascist?

[Gareth]

My post was from the Gospels actually.

However I disagree with Facist on the Revelation to John.

Why does it say in Revelation itself that it is a book of prophesy, if it is not foretelling anything?

And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

‘See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’

The one who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen.

The view that this is only a text of encouragement are merely disproved by looking at the text itself.

[Fascist]

Revelations does prophesy the return of Christ, however, all the signs and and symbolism about what will lead up to the return refer to events that Christians of the time would have been able to decipher as referring to their own time. The beast numbered 666 is Diocletian, there were popular rumors at the time that he was a reincarnation of Nero who also persecuted the Christians mercilessly. If you pick up a Catholic bible and read the footnotes commenting on the passages of the book, you can get a good idea of what the book is referring to with it's symbolic language. Ultimately, if someone chooses to take Revelations literally and try to use it to identify the coming of the end, that's simply a matter of faith and choosing to believe what you want to believe. I think the Church's explanation about the origin and purpose of the book make a lot more sense than any of the protestant theories, especially the tribulation and rapture nonsense a lot of evangelicals believe in.


EDIT: The number 666 refers to Domitian, not Diocletian. Many people believed Domitian was the return of Nero.

[Gareth]

Fascist, there are literally thousands of views on the Revelation.

However what do you think the New Earth and the New Jerusalem refer to?

[Fascist]

Fascist, there are literally thousands of views on the Revelation.

I'm sure there are. I just happen to find virtually all of them to be crap.


However what do you think the New Earth and the New Jerusalem refer to?
The New Earth is the world reborn in Christ's salvation. The New Jerusalem is the symbol of the Church.

[Gareth]

That's interesting, do you not think it has any afterlife references?

And the references to the 144,000 of the 12 tribes, what did that mean in your opinion?

[LARKIN32]

That's interesting, do you not think it has any afterlife references?

And the references to the 144,000 of the 12 tribes, what did that mean in your opinion?
what does that mean in your mind?

[Gareth]

I'm questioning Fascist about it at the minute. I'm not certain about the Book of Revelation.

[Phædrus]

The Messiah will return when pigs fly. Oh wait, cops have helicopters. :D

[Fascist]

12 is used in revelation to refer to the tribes of Israel and the apostles. 144 represents the original 12 chosen tribes of Israel perfected by the message of the 12 apostles and multiplied by 1000 which is a number to show immensity and that salvation had spread to the whole world. In short the 144,000 refers to the vast number of the faithful that make up the Church.

There certainly are afterlife references to those who are already in heaven and a promise that the faithful will join them one day.

[LARKIN32]

religion is a losing argument...
for head cases.

[Gareth]

religion is a losing argument...
for head cases.

A losing argument to what?

If you consider Christians to be head cases fair enough, that would be generalizing though.

[Viv]

Religion in general, not just Christians. It is fiction.

[LARKIN32]

A losing argument to what?

If you consider Christians to be head cases fair enough, that would be generalizing though.
i dont see religion as a rational idea.
it all results in dogmatic opinions,and misinterpretation even by its own standards.
i'm not an atheist either.

[Gareth]

i dont see religion as a rational idea.
it all results in dogmatic opinions,and misinterpretation even by its own standards.
i'm not an atheist either.


Many religious scholars would disagree with you. Many of them being more qualified than you or I. What makes you think they can't justify their faith in a logical manner?

[Shadow]

"thoughts" on the returning messiah....


.........a whole lot of fanciful, magical? and wishful thinking (delusion?!) that is part and parcel of a belief package NOT based on any REASON, LAWS, or FACTS.

[Gareth]

*yawn* Shadow... reading abit of Dawkins I take it. Now you feel ready to take on the entire thinking world. Congratulations.

[LARKIN32]

Many religious scholars would disagree with you. Many of them being more qualified than you or I. What makes you think they can't justify their faith in a logical manner?i never said religious scholars/clerics couldn't.just as dorkins et al,could justify what they think.....
still i don't understand modern evangelical fundamentalists et cetera,just as i don't understand other religious extremists or fundamentalists,ie.wahabists...
anyway, religion should have nothing to do with politics,or the state....

[Phædrus]

Religious Scholar, n: A person who has recieved a degree in one of the "fuzzy subjects" and wishes to inform people on how to interpret their faith. Syn: Prentious Asshole, Overbearing Hypocrite. Ant: Intelligent person.

[LARKIN32]

pretentious.....

[Gareth]

Religious Scholar, n: A person who has recieved a degree in one of the "fuzzy subjects" and wishes to inform people on how to interpret their faith. Syn: Prentious Asshole, Overbearing Hypocrite. Ant: Intelligent person.

Phaedrus. If you want to think that way about theologians that's fine. Not all of them are even religious, many are actually atheists / agnostics. It's serious study on the Bible given it's archaeology and literary style.

If you want to learn Biblical Hebrew, Greek among many other things to do this to show how "easy" it is go ahead. Otherwise you deem yourself arrogant.

i never said religious scholars/clerics couldn't.just as dorkins et al,could justify what they think.....
still i don't understand modern evangelical fundamentalists et cetera,just as i don't understand other religious extremists or fundamentalists,ie.wahabists...
anyway, religion should have nothing to do with politics,or the state....

Sorry, I have read Richard Dawkins book. He knows little or nothing in relation to theology. He might be a fantastic biologist, but a terrible theologian.

[Phædrus]

Phaedrus. If you want to think that way about theologians that's fine. Not all of them are even religious, many are actually atheists / agnostics. It's serious study on the Bible given it's archaeology and literary style.

If you want to learn Biblical Hebrew, Greek among many other things to do this to show how "easy" it is go ahead. Otherwise you deem yourself arrogant.

Hey, I never said it was easy. But I don't hold much respect for them, especially as many operate with forgone conclusions, especially the more religious theologians.

[Gareth]

Forgone conclusions? ... I think you should explain.

[mickyk200]

"a messiah"? should it not be the messiah?

[Gareth]

"a messiah"? should it not be the messiah?

Leaves room for the Jews who believe the Messiah has not come yet. However then the word "return" wouldn't be compatible.

[mickyk200]

Leaves room for the Jews who believe the Messiah has not come yet. However then the word "return" wouldn't be compatible.
Then I believe the word return would direct this thread more at Christianity, as far as I can see in the old testament only predicts one messiah. This being your Torah, I believe.

[Gareth]

Messiah merely means anointed one. Christos means the same thing.

There are many claimants of the title of Messiah apart from Jesus also. None hold up to Biblical prophesy as closely as Christ does in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

[LARKIN32]

Messiah merely means anointed one. Christos means the same thing.

There are many claimants of the title of Messiah apart from Jesus also. None hold up to Biblical prophesy as closely as Christ does in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
back to the topic

[Gareth]

It is on topic :)

[LARKIN32]

who is you.

[mickyk200]

There are many claimants of the title of Messiah apart from Jesus also. None hold up to Biblical prophesy as closely as Christ does in my opinion.
No Abrahamic ones though...

[Gareth]

No Abrahamic ones though...

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths. Most of the people on that page are subscribers of Abrahamic faiths. The word Messiah is a word of Jewish origin, so it would be only Abrahamics who have an understanding of it.

[mickyk200]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths. Most of the people on that page are subscribers of Abrahamic faiths. The word Messiah is a word of Jewish origin, so it would be only Abrahamics who have an understanding of it.
What about those who lay claim to the title Messiah the scriptures foresaw, whom arn't Christ?

[Gareth]

What about those who lay claim to the title Messiah the scriptures foresaw, whom arn't Christ?

Jews considered Simeon bar Kokhba (120AD) among others to be the potential Messiah.

[LARKIN32]

abraham was an iraqi

[Gareth]

abraham was an iraqi

Yes, Ur of Mesopotamia, near modern day Basra according to experts.

[LARKIN32]

yes..always believe the experts...
wher were the hebrews from originally...
the arabian peninsula....?
dont blieve all the zionist computer nerds tell you about other "things"????:p

[Gareth]

?? Experts from theological colleges.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Meso2mil.JPG

Take a look at this map.

[LARKIN32]

explain?

[LARKIN32]

ps.
the hebrews...originated in the arabian peninsula
all semitic tribes/races did..including the canaanites etc

[Gareth]

ps.
the hebrews...originated in the arabian peninsula
all semitic tribes/races did..including the canaanites etc

Provide a source?

There was no such thing as Hebrews before Abraham.

[LARKIN32]

you provide a source...
i state facts .historical ones.
all semitic peoples came from the arabian peninsula..thought youd know that..
as for the hebrews ...they went to egypt,and later canaan.
i'm not speaking of khazars or todays palestinians..

[Gareth]

Provide a source. I cannot prove they are facts if you do not tell me where you got them from.

Mesopotamia and Iraq, apprarently hold up as a strong location for the beginning of life:

"Historically, the ancient city states of Mesopotamia in the fertile crescent are most cited by Western and Middle Eastern scholars as the cradle of civilization. The convergence of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers produced rich fertile soil and a supply of water for irrigation. The civilizations that emerged around these rivers are among the earliest known attempts humanity made at establishing non-nomadic agrarian societies. But it is because Ubaid, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria and Babylon civilizations all emerged around the Tigris-Euphrates, the theory that Mesopotamia is the cradle of civilizations might be the strongest"

And this hooks up perfectly with the locations given Biblically.

A river flows out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it divides and becomes four branches. The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one that flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one that flows around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

Notice how I bolded the Tigris and the Euphrates in both texts.

Now it's up to you to whether you would like to stop trolling.

[quirk]

Can people please debate without resorting to personal insults.

Thanks.

[ciaranxavier]

Provide a source. I cannot prove they are facts if you do not tell me where you got them from.

Mesopotamia and Iraq, apprarently hold up as a strong location for the beginning of life:



And this hooks up perfectly with the locations given Biblically.



Notice how I bolded the Tigris and the Euphrates in both texts.

Now it's up to you to whether you would like to stop trolling.

those directions could be a LOT of places. a river that branches into four. hm ive never seen one of those lol jk yes i have do i live near the garden of eden?

[Shadow]

Impending return of the messiah???


sounds like a whole lot of wishful thinking on the part of the "believers".

[Gareth]

Impending return of the messiah???


sounds like a whole lot of wishful thinking on the part of the "believers".

I happen to think it sounds like a lot of wishful thinking on the part of "unbelievers", but that's neither here nor there hey?

[Shadow]

I happen to think it sounds like a lot of wishful thinking on the part of "unbelievers", but that's neither here nor there hey?



each to his own.;)

[LARKIN32]

ahahah..

i wonder what would happen if they did find their new messiah...
probably stone the poor fker....

[Shadow]

ahahah..

i wonder what would happen if they did find their new messiah...
probably stone the poor fker....


LOL. Most likely. Or bring back LYNCHING with a lot of gruesome enthusiasm. "they" probably would not recognize their "messiah" if they tripped on him anyhow. Makes one wonder about the sanity of such "beliefs".~~ as they tend to keep folks restrained in the dark ages . Hopefully, one day reason , facts and information/knowledge will prevail over such beliefs.

[Gareth]

It's not going to be a "new messiah" in Christianity, it will be the Son, Jesus Christ.

However in Judaism, the Messiah will be different from Jesus in their belief, and one of the categories for being Messiah is that you will be put to death. However in Christianity, Jesus was crucified and He was resurrected. Therefore He fulfilled this prophesy.

[quirk]

Who is the other Prophet spoken of in Christianity? I read about this first last week only.

[Gareth]

Who are the other prophets? you mean?

There's several, there was a line of prophets.

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Nathan, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Gideon, Joshua, Habbakuk, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Joel, Jonah, Malachi, Zechariah, and theres many more in the Old Testament. John the Baptist, and the 12 disciples, Paul the Apostle. I know you have been studying Islam, so you know that many of these have featured in Islam also.

[mickyk200]

Who are the other prophets? you mean?

There's several, there was a line of prophets.

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Nathan, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Gideon, Joshua, Habbakuk, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Joel, Jonah, Malachi, Zechariah, and theres many more in the Old Testament. John the Baptist, and the 12 disciples, Paul the Apostle. I know you have been studying Islam, so you know that many of these have featured in Islam also.
Abraham would be the main prophet who got the ball rolling.

[quirk]

Who are the other prophets? you mean?

There's several, there was a line of prophets.

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Nathan, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Gideon, Joshua, Habbakuk, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Joel, Jonah, Malachi, Zechariah, and theres many more in the Old Testament. John the Baptist, and the 12 disciples, Paul the Apostle. I know you have been studying Islam, so you know that many of these have featured in Islam also.

No I mean the other Prophet that was expected after Christ.

19Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ.[g]"

21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."
John 1: 19-21

Obviously there is Elijah, Christ and another Prophet who was expected by the Jews. Who is this Prophet is what I am asking?

There is a second issue raised by this verse as Christ said that John the Baptist was Elijah yet here he says he isn't. Some you have 3 scenarios the way I see it:

1)Christ is being mistruthful
2) John the Baptist is being mistruthful
3) Whoever wrote this made a mistake.

[Gareth]

Or 4) John the Baptist wasn't aware of the role that He had been given by God.

He is thought to be the Elijah character discussed in Malachi 4 in Biblical prophesy, and we see similarities between the dress and the lifestyle of John the Baptist and Elijah if you look to the Old Testament. It doesn't mean that He was Elijah.

Also when Isaiah 40 speaks of a man crying out in the desert before Jesus.

The point in the prophesy was never that this prophet would be after Jesus, the prophet would come before Jesus.

Or 5) That the prophet or the "comforter" that is being referred to in John is the Spirit. This would make sense as the Spirit did indeed come in Acts soon after Jesus departed (40 days). Whereas if the claim would be Muhammad it would have been centuries later. Personally I see the Spirit to make more sense. One could argue otherwise.

[quirk]

Or 4) John the Baptist wasn't aware of the role that He had been given by God.

He is thought to be the Elijah character discussed in Malachi 4 in Biblical prophesy, and we see similarities between the dress and the lifestyle of John the Baptist and Elijah if you look to the Old Testament. It doesn't mean that He was Elijah.

Also when Isaiah 40 speaks of a man crying out in the desert before Jesus.

The point in the prophesy was never that this prophet would be after Jesus, the prophet would come before Jesus.

Or 5) That the prophet or the "comforter" that is being referred to in John is the Spirit. This would make sense as the Spirit did indeed come in Acts soon after Jesus departed (40 days). Whereas if the claim would be Muhammad it would have been centuries later. Personally I see the Spirit to make more sense. One could argue otherwise.

Well the book I am reading at the moment does argue otherwise, however its good to have the side you presented also.

[Gareth]

I found a link that offers an alternative view even:
http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt11_13.htm

Another good point. Elijah is in the Gospels at the transfiguration with Moses, and Jesus. How could he be possibly be both John the Baptist and Elijah at the same time. The link makes more sense imo.