Is it Time to Legalise Recreational Drugs?

[An Céachta Dearg]

Is it time to legalise drugs?

What would be the effect of this on society both in a negative manner and a positive one?

Should all drugs be legalised or only "Softer" drugs?

What do you think?

[Lightweaver]

I think we should legalize all drugs. To require citizens to pay for a doctor to give them a permission slip helps increase the price of medical care and is antithetical to freedom.

The War on Drugs is not working and costs billions in wasted taxpayer dollars per year. The U.S also has a high percentage of people in prison for the victimless "crime" of possession which is ridiculous as well as costly. Legalizing drugs will be cheaper in the long run and will contribute more to the ideas of freedom and the pursuit of happiness that this country was founded on.

[Gareth]

Legalising drugs would cause the taxpayer to pay more for the additional people who would be recieved into hospitals for abuse, and for dangers caused by drugs. We're better off without them.

[Lightweaver]

Legalising drugs would cause the taxpayer to pay more for the additional people who would be recieved into hospitals for abuse, and for dangers caused by drugs. We're better off without them.

I still believe that ending the War on Drugs would be a lot cheaper than paying for abusers' medical care. And your reply touches upon another subject, socialist programs where taxpayers pay others' bills. Eliminate the federal and state programs that pay for medical care for abusers and then cost wouldn't be a factor except for the parties involved.

[Gareth]

Why should you allow something into society that has a huge risk for those who take it, I don't understand how you would want to increase the risks of schizophrenia etc amongst our population. I would gladly pay extra (even if the cost would be more, I don't believe it would be though), to stop people getting these kinds of illnesses.

[Lightweaver]

Why should you allow something into society that has a huge risk for those who take it,

Because I don't believe in the concept of the nanny state. Adults should be free to choose whatever activities appeal to them which do not harm others.

I don't understand how you would want to increase the risks of schizophrenia etc amongst our population. I would gladly pay extra (even if the cost would be more, I don't believe it would be though), to stop people getting these kinds of illnesses.

Schizophrenia is a biochemically-based mental illness. In actuality, many people who are mentally ill turn to illicit drugs in an attempt to self-medicate and make the painful feelings go away. Making drugs illegal does not stop one from having a mental illness so I don't understand quite where you are coming from with this post.

[Gareth]

Taking drugs, heightens the risk of people becoming mentally ill. Why on earth would you allow that?

[ciaranxavier]

marijuana should be legalized theres no question about it, not only for the medicinal benefits from it but also the recreational benefits.

[ciaranxavier]

Taking drugs, heightens the risk of people becoming mentally ill. Why on earth would you allow that?

lets stop talking in the broad perspective and you should specify which drugs your talking about. and then tell me which ones cause mental illness.

[bay]

Drugs kill the spirit, this is true

But, prohibiting them has worked about as well as prohibition did in the early 20th century here.

All that did was boost organized crimoe ten fold, just like the war on drugs has boosted the drug cartels.

The war on drugs has made more addicts, gareth, not reduced the number. People can get addicted to anything. Did you know that methadone clinics around the world have more patients that are oxycontin addicts than heroin addicts? Oxy is a legal prescription narcotic and one of the most abused drugs in the world right now. It destroys lives and relationships just like alcohol and street drugs do.

the truth of the matter folks is another ugly american not so secret. While the DEA spends bazillions trying to stop the flow of illegal drugs into the US, and while clinics try to stem the tide of addiction, the CIA is paying coca, poppy and reefer growers around the world to fund our not so secret little wars.

so this whole "just say no" campaign, the whole war on drugs, at least in the US, is a total, complete farce. More Orwellian double speak

[Dreadfulfaery]

I don't understand how you would want to increase the risks of schizophrenia etc amongst our population.

Your assuming that legalsiing it would lead to an increase in consumption. Just becasue it was available doesnt mean that suddently everyone will be stoned.

[Enver]

All drugs should be legalised.

Certainly all the psychedelics should be legalised immediately.

[Gareth]

Indeed, if you want a state of chaos fire away :p

[Viv]

I am against it more or less for the reasons already given. But realistically, it is already part of the culture.

It might be more pragmatic to legalise and control the softer drugs.

[ciaranxavier]

Indeed, if you want a state of chaos fire away :p

could you please answer my question from my previous post.

[Enver]

Indeed, if you want a state of chaos fire away :p

What makes you think people being free to use these substances (as opposed to being persecuted by the state) would result in chaos? Education in how to use the drugs safely would be an imperative.

[Gareth]

lets stop talking in the broad perspective and you should specify which drugs your talking about. and then tell me which ones cause mental illness.

Even drugs such as cannabis which is considered a weak drug, can cause schizophrenia among other things. You'd be surprised how many in mental institutions are there due to drug abuse.

[Enver]

Even drugs such as cannabis which is considered a weak drug, can cause schizophrenia among other things. You'd be surprised how many in mental institutions are there due to drug abuse.

ROFL!!!

People in mental institutions because of cannabis?

Drugs are just another issue which the conservative mind would prefer didn't exist, but since it does it wants to limit its use as much as possible. A lot like sex.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Even drugs such as cannabis which is considered a weak drug, can cause schizophrenia among other things. You'd be surprised how many in mental institutions are there due to drug abuse.

Also causes Physcosis.

However drug use is a reliaty whether we like it or not. If we therefore legalise drugs we can then at least tax them and make them contribute towards the health system they burden. We can regulise the actualy product making it safer for human consumption. And crime rings could be destroyed by legalisation. However drug usage should always be discouraged.

[Gareth]

Drug use might be a reality as it is. That's why we need to clamp down and make sure that none of the stuff gets in. It's the governments responsibility to protect the people from this nonsense.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Drug use might be a reality as it is. That's why we need to clamp down and make sure that none of the stuff gets in. It's the governments responsibility to protect the people from this nonsense.

But the governments current policy of cracking down is not working. Therefore to protect people from its dangers they legalise and regulate them.

[Gareth]

ROFL!!!

People in mental institutions because of cannabis?

Drugs are just another issue which the conservative mind would prefer didn't exist, but since it does it wants to limit its use as much as possible. A lot like sex.

It's true. From discussing with people about the state of some in a local institution I'm not going to name it. However there are people in there for abuses of several substance and have caused themselves considerable brain damage in some cases. Do you really want to put a larger volume through this?

[Gareth]

But the governments current policy of cracking down is not working. Therefore to protect people from its dangers they legalise and regulate them.

They are not doing half enough at the minute. Anyone could tell you that. The Irish naval patrols at the minute are disgraceful.

[Enver]

Drug use might be a reality as it is. That's why we need to clamp down and make sure that none of the stuff gets in. It's the governments responsibility to protect the people from this nonsense.

Have you tried any of this 'nonsense'?

From what I've read and heard about DMT (a chemical compound that is necessary for us to dream and can be found in common garden grass) it will bring you closer to God than a lifetime of Sunday masses ever would.

[Gareth]

closer to God? That's something for someone to say who doesn't believe in God. I don't need any substance. I go for the real God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not screwing up my head. The Holy Spirit brings people closer, not drugs.

[Enver]

They are not doing half enough at the minute. Anyone could tell you that. The Irish naval patrols at the minute are disgraceful.

The drugs industry must be the second or third largest industry in the world so I doubt they have any real interest in stopping it. All that's required to satisfy middle and upper class opinion is the pretence of doing something.

[Gareth]

Hah, the government recieve no cut from drugs. How is it of any loss to them if it isn't stopped.

The welfare of the people comes before money even if that was the case.

People trafficking is actually more lucrative than drugs. Yet the State are trying everything they can to stop this, which is good in comparison to the drugs trade which harms people at home.

[Enver]

closer to God? That's something for someone to say who doesn't believe in God. I don't need any substance. I go for the real God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not screwing up my head. The Holy Spirit brings people closer, not drugs.

You believe God created everything, so did he not create DMT?

He must have, your pineal gland excretes it when you dream and, I might add, a far greater dose at that than you would ever take through smoking it or injecting it.

[Gareth]

I'm not interested in DMT, God has brought and will bring people to God without abusing what He has created.

[Enver]

Hah, the government recieve no cut from drugs. How is it of any loss to them if it isn't stopped.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

The welfare of the people comes before money even if that was the case.

See above.

People trafficking is actually more lucrative than drugs.

I don't know where you got that idea from.

Yet the State are trying everything they can to stop this, which is good in comparison to the drugs trade which harms people at home.

Not really, didn't the Free State only recently sign the EU treaty on human trafficking, having previously been the only member state who hadn't signed it?

[Enver]

I'm not interested in DMT, God has brought and will bring people to God without abusing what He has created.

But why did he create it if not for our use?

[Gareth]

If you are claiming that the State makes a cut from this please provide a source.

It's fact that human trafficking has become more lucrative.

See "Human Traffic : Sex, Slaves and Immigration." on this link: http://www.apcss.org/core/Library/Bibliography/humantraf.htm

[Gareth]

But why did he create it if not for our use?

If this causes harm when used it wasn't meant for this purpose. However I agree that cannabis has medicinal uses and this is only proper and correct in some cases.

[Enver]

If this causes harm when used it wasn't meant for this purpose. However I agree that cannabis has medicinal uses and this is only proper and correct in some cases.

It doesn't cause harm.

All of the psychedelics depend on your state of mind when using them.

[Gareth]

Well then you'd be clearly going against scientific studies corrolating the use of such drugs with mental illness. I'm sure the health department are just warning us for the laugh....

[Enver]

Well then you'd be clearly going against scientific studies corrolating the use of such drugs with mental illness. I'm sure the health department are just warning us for the laugh....

I doubt you could get your hands on DMT in Ireland, unless you were to extract it yourself. You have DMT flashes every night though when you sleep. :D

[Gareth]

I doubt you could get your hands on DMT in Ireland, unless you were to extract it yourself. You have DMT flashes every night though when you sleep. :D

Naturally occurring chemicals in the brain are not drugs. Secondly it would surely be dangerous if you ingested more of said chemical than it meant to be in your system at a given time. That is the distinction between drugs and natural chemicals in the brain in this case.

[Dreadfulfaery]

If this causes harm when used it wasn't meant for this purpose.

You can die from drinking too much water - guess we should all stop drinking it then

[Gareth]

You can die from drinking too much water - guess we should all stop drinking it then

Do you hallucinate when you drink water? When your brain starts doing things it naturally shouldn't you should start getting concerned.

[Enver]

Naturally occurring chemicals in the brain are not drugs. Secondly it would surely be dangerous if you ingested more of said chemical than it meant to be in your system at a given time. That is the distinction between drugs and natural chemicals in the brain in this case.

The amount of DMT released when you're dreaming is far greater than any amount you would take if you were smoking or injecting it. I've already pointed this out.

Since you're in favour of maximum religious freedom; do you think that the various indigenous peoples which use hallucinogens for religious purposes should have this relationship with local plants torn away from them and their religious rights suppressed?

[Enver]

Do you hallucinate when you drink water? When your brain starts doing things it naturally shouldn't you should start getting concerned.

Like hearing voices in your head and thinking it's the creator of the universe?

[Gareth]

Drinking water causes that? Is that really the source of prophesy? Good work if so.

[Enver]

Drinking water causes that? Is that really the source of prophesy? Good work if so.

No, but maybe drugs are?

[Lightweaver]

Well then you'd be clearly going against scientific studies corrolating the use of such drugs with mental illness.

The only correlation I'm aware of is the fact that many mentally ill abuse drugs in an attempt to self medicate and feel better. If a person goes into psychosis after smoking cannabis (which I've never heard of), that person wasn't very stable to begin with.

The number of people who have a mental illness CAUSED by drugs is very small, if it even exists, while the number of mentally ill people who abuse drugs is high. I have studied the subject, done volunteer work and taught classes about mental illness so I'm not just pulling these statements out of my azz.

You also said the state should protect people from drugs. I don't know how it is in Europe, but the majority of drug deaths here in the US occur from people taking drugs prescribed by their doctor,not from taking illegal street drugs.

Plus you and I have a completely different idea of what the state should do. I believe in the concept that government exists solely to protect people's rights and property, not to modify nor control their behavior that doesn't harm other peoples rights and property. It sounds like you believe more in the concept of the nanny state, where people in charge create laws that everyone else should follow, for their "protection." Carried to an extreme, which happens as more and more laws are passed, this becomes fascism. I prefer freedom and don't need a politician, religion, law, nor anything else to tell me what I can and cannot do. My conscience does that very well. :)

[Enver]

The only correlation I'm aware of is the fact that many mentally ill abuse drugs in an attempt to self medicate and feel better. If a person goes into psychosis after smoking cannabis (which I've never heard of), that person wasn't very stable to begin with.

The number of people who have a mental illness CAUSED by drugs is very small, if it even exists, while the number of mentally ill people who abuse drugs is high. I have studied the subject, done volunteer work and taught classes about mental illness so I'm not just pulling these statements out of my azz.

You also said the state should protect people from drugs. I don't know how it is in Europe, but the majority of drug deaths here in the US occur from people taking drugs prescribed by their doctor,not from taking illegal street drugs.

Plus you and I have a completely different idea of what the state should do. I believe in the concept that government exists solely to protect people's rights and property, not to modify nor control their behavior that doesn't harm other peoples rights and property. It sounds like you believe more in the concept of the nanny state, where people in charge create laws that everyone else should follow, for their "protection." Carried to an extreme, which happens as more and more laws are passed, this becomes fascism. I prefer freedom and don't need a politician, religion, law, nor anything else to tell me what I can and cannot do. My conscience does that very well. :)

Very good post. :)

[Lightweaver]

Thank you. :)

[Don melQuiades]

Ah... my very favourite subject. :)

To me the (very) strong argument for full or partial legalization/decriminilization comes from two perspectives:

1. Liberty. Who is the government to tell me, or you, or your mom, whether we can do with our bodies? Nobody: that's who. It is not the government's perogative to tell me that I can't blow my mind on acid, shrooms, or salvia, or to tell me I can't put myself in hyperdrive from cocaine, caffiene, or other such stimulants, or to tell me that I can't chill myself with narcotics or marijuana. It's a matter of the government overstepping its bounds.

2. Pragmatism. Even operating under the mentality that all currently illegal drugs are bad (which I don't believe. I believe some are bad, heroin, for example, but especially methamphetamines), the current popularly employed policy is counterproductive. I defy anyone to find a reputable study that says that the War on Drugs* is anything but a dismal failure. Even if you can, I will find you ten to the contrary for every one you find. The criminalization of the user, the decision to treat it as a criminal problem instead of a medical problem, has led to the dreadful situation that we have now, the rampant crime all the way up the Carribean corridor, the continued funding of the FARC in Colombia, the funding of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and as Lumara, I think, mentioned, the absurd cost of incarcerating a full 1% of the American* populace.

*Sorry if my posts on the subject are a little America-centric. I am more familiar with both the problems and the policy of the United States. I can't speak for Europe, these are my views on drug laws in the United States.

[Don melQuiades]

Naturally occurring chemicals in the brain are not drugs. Secondly it would surely be dangerous if you ingested more of said chemical than it meant to be in your system at a given time. That is the distinction between drugs and natural chemicals in the brain in this case.

Falsifications. Many drugs trigger the exact same chemical reactions in your brain that happens in your sleep. You are simply wrong about this.

[ciaranxavier]

Even drugs such as cannabis which is considered a weak drug, can cause schizophrenia among other things. You'd be surprised how many in mental institutions are there due to drug abuse.

there is nothing even close to solid evidence to prove that marijuana causes schizophrenia. schizo is believed to be a genetic disorder not one caused by weed. and also show me one patient in a psych ward whos there because of weed. i could see meth or crack causing enough brain damage to require outside attention but show me ONE person who smoked weed and now has to be hospitilized with a related mental illness. and this plant was put on this earth by your god for us to enjoy. if he didnt want us to use the things he put on this planet why did he put it there gareth?

[Gareth]

I've answered that question for Enver already. If they cause harm when used in a certain way, they are not meant to be used in that regard at all. Limitations to medical use are required.

[bay]

Gareth, drugs don't cause schizophrenia, depression etc. Those are caused by genetics, chemical imbalances in the brain that already exist. They may be exacerbated by recretational drugs, but the drugs don't CAUSE it.

I'm not a fan of drugs, don't get me wrong. But please let's argue the facts.

[Don melQuiades]

I've answered that question for Enver already. If they cause harm when used in a certain way, they are not meant to be used in that regard at all. Limitations to medical use are required.

I'm pretty sure that I've read the entire thread, and I don't remember you linking to any conclusive study that shows that drugs do the things you are claiming that they do.

[ciaranxavier]

I've answered that question for Enver already. If they cause harm when used in a certain way, they are not meant to be used in that regard at all. Limitations to medical use are required.

answer the first part and where in the bible does god say that marijuana wasnt meant to be smoked?

[Viv]

This and other reports do suggest drugs can cause mental illness.

Chronic use of some drugs of abuse can cause long-lasting changes in the brain, which may lead to paranoia, depression, aggression, and hallucinations.



Drugs that can cause mental health problems:


Cocaine
Inhalants
Ketamine
Marijuana
MDMA
Methamphetamine
Prescription Stimulants


Selected Research Findings on the Mental Health Effects of Drug Abuse


Chronic Methamphetamine Increases Fighting in Mice

A propensity for violent behaviors to develop in chronic methamphetamine (METH) abusers has been noted. The idea that increased aggressiveness might result from chronic METH administration was tested in mice after chronic (long-term intermittent, 8 weeks) or single exposures to the drug. A single injection of METH (6 mg/kg) did not augment fighting. In contrast, chronic METH administration significantly increased the number of animals that initiated bite attacks. This regimen also shortened the latency before the first attack. Latency before the first attack was shorter at 20 h after the METH injection than at 15 min after injection. Locomotor activity was not different at 20 h after METH injection, indicating that increased fighting was not secondary to METH-induced hyperactivity. METH-induced increases in fighting were not related to the duration of persistent sniffing after the initial encounter with an intruder since the duration of this behavior was significantly increased at 15 min after METH but not at 20 h post drug. These results indicate that repeated injections of METH can increase fighting behaviors and also alter social interactions in mice. Thus, intermittent administration of METH might be useful as a pharmacological model to study the biochemical and molecular bases of aggressiveness. Sokolov, B.P., Schindler, C.W. and Cadet, J.L. Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, 77, pp. 319-326, 2004.





Relevant NIDA Meetings


NIDA and the American Psychiatric Association (APA) organized and co-sponsored a special research-based program track entitled Integrating the Science of Addiction Into Psychiatric Practice during the 157th APA Annual Meeting held May 1-6, 2004. The nearly 30 sessions featured in this track, including 7 major lectures by some of the world's leading drug abuse and addiction researchers, addressed a wide array of topics linked to mental illness and drug abuse. Some of the topics built into the series included stress, trauma, and drug abuse; obesity and addiction; smoking and comorbid mental disorders; and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and drug abuse. NIDA also highlighted a number of other sessions from the APA program based on scientific content that complements the series theme. The goal of this special track was to raise awareness of new and emerging issues in addiction and psychiatry and provide important information related to best practices and treatment strategies. http://www.nida.nih.gov/consequences/psychiatric/

[Don melQuiades]

Abuse.


;)

[ciaranxavier]

This and other reports do suggest drugs can cause mental illness.

these contradict you. the only proven effect on the brain is short term memory loss which lasts while intoxicated.
Marijuana Use Is a Symptom, Not a Cause, of Mental Illness

Heavy marijuana users do badly at work or school, and are more likely to be delinquent and develop psychiatric problems, or have abnormal brain waves. Time and again, however, such studies encounter the same objection: are the problems caused by smoking marijuana, or is it just that people with problems are more likely to end up using marijuana heavily? It turns out that, in the case of delinquency, schizophrenia and mental illnesses, the balance of the evidence points to the second explanation. Marijuana doesn't cause the problems, although it may make them worse. Some schizophrenics, for example, are drawn to the drug because it eases their sense of social alienation. And most researchers now accept that the evidence linking marijuana to abnormal brain waves vanishes when people with psychiatric problems, illnesses or a history of general drug abuse are excluded from studies.

28th Apr 2002
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/976/



Marijuana as wonder drug

A NEW STUDY in the journal Neurology is being hailed as unassailable proof that marijuana is a valuable medicine. It is a sad commentary on the state of modern medicine -- and US drug policy -- that we still need "proof" of something that medicine has known for 5,000 years.
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The study, from the University of California at San Francisco, found smoked marijuana to be effective at relieving the extreme pain of a debilitating condition known as peripheral neuropathy. It was a study of HIV patients, but a similar type of pain caused by damage to nerves afflicts people with many other illnesses including diabetes and multiple sclerosis. Neuropathic pain is notoriously resistant to treatment with conventional pain drugs. Even powerful and addictive narcotics like morphine and OxyContin often provide little relief. This study leaves no doubt that marijuana can safely ease this type of pain.

As all marijuana research in the United States must be, the new study was conducted with government-supplied marijuana of notoriously poor quality. So it probably underestimated the potential benefit.

This is all good news, but it should not be news at all. In the 40-odd years I have been studying the medicinal uses of marijuana, I have learned that the recorded history of this medicine goes back to ancient times and that in the 19th century it became a well-established Western medicine whose versatility and safety were unquestioned. From 1840 to 1900, American and European medical journals published over 100 papers on the therapeutic uses of marijuana, also known as cannabis.

Of course, our knowledge has advanced greatly over the years. Scientists have identified over 60 unique constituents in marijuana, called cannabinoids, and we have learned much about how they work. We have also learned that our own bodies produce similar chemicals, called endocannabinoids.

The mountain of accumulated anecdotal evidence that pointed the way to the present and other clinical studies also strongly suggests there are a number of other devastating disorders and symptoms for which marijuana has been used for centuries; they deserve the same kind of careful, methodologically sound research. While few such studies have so far been completed, all have lent weight to what medicine already knew but had largely forgotten or ignored: Marijuana is effective at relieving nausea and vomiting, spasticity, appetite loss, certain types of pain, and other debilitating symptoms. And it is extraordinarily safe -- safer than most medicines prescribed every day. If marijuana were a new discovery rather than a well-known substance carrying cultural and political baggage, it would be hailed as a wonder drug.

The pharmaceutical industry is scrambling to isolate cannabinoids and synthesize analogs, and to package them in non-smokable forms. In time, companies will almost certainly come up with products and delivery systems that are more useful and less expensive than herbal marijuana. However, the analogs they have produced so far are more expensive than herbal marijuana, and none has shown any improvement over the plant nature gave us to take orally or to smoke.

We live in an antismoking environment. But as a method of delivering certain medicinal compounds, smoking marijuana has some real advantages: The effect is almost instantaneous, allowing the patient, who after all is the best judge, to fine-tune his or her dose to get the needed relief without intoxication. Smoked marijuana has never been demonstrated to have serious pulmonary consequences, but in any case the technology to inhale these cannabinoids without smoking marijuana already exists as vaporizers that allow for smoke-free inhalation.

Hopefully the UCSF study will add to the pressure on the US government to rethink its irrational ban on the medicinal use of marijuana -- and its destructive attacks on patients and caregivers in states that have chosen to allow such use. Rather than admit they have been mistaken all these years, federal officials can cite "important new data" and start revamping outdated and destructive policies. The new Congress could go far in establishing its bona fides as both reasonable and compassionate by immediately moving on this issue.

Such legislation would bring much-needed relief to millions of Americans suffering from cancer, AIDS, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, and other debilitating illnesses.

Lester Grinspoon, an emeritus professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, is the coauthor of "Marijuana, the Forbidden Medicine."