1981 Irish Hunger Strike

[An Céachta Dearg]

On the 1st of March 1981 an event begun that would change the course of the Republican Movements war to remove Britian from the northern 6 counties of Ireland and would secure Magaret Tatchers image as the Iron Lady.
The date is significant as it was the day that IRA volunteer Bobby Sands would commence a hungerstrike which would result in the deaths of 10 volunteers 7 IRA and 3 INLA. That date was chosen as it marked the fifth year anniversary of the introduction of "Criminalisation" and the beginning of the "Blanket protest" which was started by Kieran Nugent.
Criminalisation was a policy which withdrew special status for IRA prisoners and an attempt to classify them as common criminals. This policy refused to recognise them as Political Prisoners. Nugent when he was sentenced refused to wear the prison uniform and therefore was threw into a cell with only a blanket and a bible. He would later be followed by hundreds of later prisoners who refused to be classed as common criminals.

I was brought straight to the blocks. Cell 17, D wing H1 or 2. I was stripped and beaten. The screws who knew me said, 'We are the bosses now. There are no OCs here'. A screw said to me, 'What size are you in the waist and what size are you for shows?' I asked him 'What for?' and he told me 'For a uniform'. I said, 'You have got to be joking'. I was the only one in the H-Blocks. They dragged me into the cell. Davy Long [one of the warders] wanted me to compromise. He suggested I wore my own shoes and trousers if I wore a prison shirt. I just laughed. He locked the door. I lay on the floor all night without mattress, blankets or anything else. The heat was reasonable in all fairness and I slept.
If they want me to wear a uniform they'll have to nail it to my back.
-Kieran Nugent.

The blanket protest later descended into a dirty protest in where the prisoners refused to was and slop out, instead they would spread their excrement upon their cell walls.

The right not to wear a prison uniform;
The right not to do prison work;
The right of free association with other prisoners, and to organise educational and recreational pursuits;
The right to one visit, one letter and one parcel per week;
Full restoration of remission lost through the protest
In 1980 the prisoners had had enough of these horrendous conditions and decided to commence a hunger strike. On the 27th of October 8 republican prisoners comenced a hunger strike. This ended in failure on the 18th of December 1980 when it appeared that the Five demands had been met, it later emerged that this was not so.

In 1981 the prisoners led by Sands decided that they would again use the Hunger Strike but this time on a one by one basis and that a new prisoner would join the Strike every two weeks. Sands volunteered to lead the strike and go first, and the date of the 1st of March on anniversary of Criminalisation as mentioned above. The strike would result in ten deaths over the course of 7 months in 1981.


Bobby Sands M.P
IRA
1 March-5 May
66 days

Francis Hughes
IRA
15 March-12 May
59 days

Raymond McCreesh
IRA
22 March-21 May
61 days

Patsy O’Hara
INLA
22 March-21 May
61 days

Joe McDonnell
IRA
8 May-8 July
61 days

Martin Hurson
IRA
28 May 13 July
46 days

Kevin Lynch
INLA
23 May-1 August
71 days

Kieran Doherty T.D
IRA
22 May-2 August
73 days

Thomas McElwee
IRA
8 June-8 August
62 days

Michael Devine
INLA
22 June-20 August
60 days

God And Ireland Don't Forget
The Ten Brave Men Who've Died

[Enver]

Those brave men died for rights that have since been removed by an agreement that some of their former comrades uphold. They gave their lives in protest against the attempted criminalisation of the Irish struggle for national liberation. Despite all that suffering and sacrifice we find ourselves back at square one. POWs and political prisoners are once again subject to a disgraceful attempt to criminalise them and the struggle they represent. Republican history will judge Adams and his supporters very harshly, of that I have no doubt.

[Gareth]

I don't see the bravery. Can someone explain please? It's made me confused how starvation is a form of bravery.

[An Céachta Dearg]

I don't see the bravery. Can someone explain please? It's made me confused how starvation is a form of bravery.


To end the suffering of your fellow man and comrades in the cages you sacrfice your own life. Is this not the me princepal you believe Jesus went to his death, where was his bravery?

[Gareth]

They were imprisoned as terrorist suspects I thought :confused:. Why shouldn't they have been in the same conditions as other criminals?

[An Céachta Dearg]

They were imprisoned as terrorist suspects I thought :confused:. Why shouldn't they have been in the same conditions as other criminals?

Because they were Political prisoners who fell victim to the policy of British criminalisation to try and distort both international and public opinion for the fight for Self-Determination.

Jesus also was excecuted as a "terrorist" of sorts as he opposed the status quo.

[Gareth]

They were criminals. I don't see why "political prisoners" should be distinguished from anyone else. If it was for general prisoners rights I might understand.

Jesus didn't carry arms, for a start. Jesus never plotted to kill anyone. I can't say the same for those lads there. Bobby Sands isn't comparable.

How was Jesus a terrorist? His charges were 1) blasphemy from the Sanhedrin, and 2) treason for claiming the "Kingdom of God" by the Romans.

Nothing to do with terrorism.

[Enver]

I don't see the bravery. Can someone explain please? It's made me confused how starvation is a form of bravery.

You don't see the bravery because you're a spineless tramp who has a completely warped sense of morality that is fundamentally underlined by hypocracy. These men showed what it really means to believe in something. Would you be willing to endure the suffering they went through for your religious beliefs?

[Enver]

They were imprisoned as terrorist suspects I thought :confused:. Why shouldn't they have been in the same conditions as other criminals?

They weren't terrorists and they weren't criminals. They were principled soldiers who fought for their class and their country. Even the Vatican acknowledged their martyrdom and gave each of the families a silver crucifix.

[LARKIN32]

I don't see the bravery. Can someone explain please? It's made me confused how starvation is a form of bravery.
what is this.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

[LARKIN32]

he knows what hes saying.......

[LARKIN32]

They weren't terrorists and they weren't criminals. They were principled soldiers who fought for their class and their country. Even the Vatican acknowledged their martyrdom and gave each of the families a silver crucifix.and they did it for Ireland.not bs or crime.

[quirk]

I don't see the bravery. Can someone explain please? It's made me confused how starvation is a form of bravery.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
Matthew 5:6

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13.

[bay]

you might as well save your breath to blow on hot soup, Larkin. You can't reason with people whose minds are made up.

[An Céachta Dearg]

How was Jesus a terrorist? His charges were 1) blasphemy from the Sanhedrin, and 2) treason for claiming the "Kingdom of God" by the Romans. .
Jesus was a terrorist in the sense that is how he was percieved, he was a threat to the Status Quo.



Nothing to do with terrorism.

Exactly why the prisoners were on strike, they were not common criminals or terrorists but political prisoners who were fighting a war of libertation.

[LARKIN32]

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
Matthew 5:6

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13.

hit him wher it f$$$in' hurts ,mate..:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Enver]

Exactly why the prisoners were on strike, they were not common criminals or terrorists but political prisoners who were fighting a war of libertation.

The GFA/SAA retrospectively criminalizes these men and those who continue the struggle.

[quirk]

They were imprisoned as terrorist suspects I thought :confused:. Why shouldn't they have been in the same conditions as other criminals?

Do you disagree with international law which states that a people are legally entitled to resist an occupation?

[Enver]

Do you disagree with international law which states that a people are legally entitled to resist an occupation?

He does.

He previously stated on this forum that there should be no armed resistance to any occupation, not even Nazi Germany or the Vichy French. The idea is that you chin wag away with them while they ravage your country.

[quirk]

POWs and political prisoners are once again subject to a disgraceful attempt to criminalise them and the struggle they represent. Republican history will judge Adams and his supporters very harshly, of that I have no doubt.

Only 2 weeks ago this happened:

PRESS RELEASE: 32 COUNTY SOVEREIGNTY MOVEMENT
26/03/2008

32 CSM warn ill treatment of republican POW's will not be tolerated.

The 32 County Sovereignty Movement, the Irish Republican Prisoners Welfare Association and the wider republican family will not tolerate any further attacks on republican prisoners such as that carried out by the prison riot squad against republican remand prisoner Anton Craig.

Anton, 23 from the Short Strand area of Belfast was returning from the canteen with his food when he was told to remove an Easter Lilly which the prison officer told him was a 'sectarian emblem'.
As a republican Anton obviously refused and was then informed that he was on a charge and would face punishment for refusing an order. Anton proceeded to his cell where he staged a token protest by wrecking up certain items such as table, chairs and other furniture.

At around 4.30-5.00 pm, eight members of the prison's riot squad entered Anton's cell and seriously assaulted him leaving him black and blue. They rammed his face into the cell floor asking him who ordered him to protest and calling him 'nothing but a provie bastard'. The riot squad also trashed the sink, toilet and electrics in his cell.

As a consequence of the actions of the prison staff, Anton Craig has been sitting in a cell with out electric, washing facilities and a toilet that will not flush since Easter Sunday, there is nothing in his cell but a bed. A number of other prisoners were charged with wearing lilies and were charged, adjudicated on and sent to the punishment block the next day for 48 hours, all are back on the republican wing whereas Anton has yet to be adjudicated on and is facing up to seven days solitary confinement on top of the punishment he is already enduring.

The republican movement urge all republicans to resist this criminalisation and to support republican prisoners in their battle for political status. The attitude of the prison staff against republicans is nothing but the attitude of the British to Irish republican separatists in microcosm.
The republican base can no longer and will no longer endure attacks on republicanism either within the prisons or outside their walls.

[An Céachta Dearg]

The GFA/SAA retrospectively criminalizes these men and those who continue the struggle.

I dont neccessarily agree with every clause of the agreement Enver.

[Enver]

I dont neccessarily agree with every clause of the agreement Enver.

I never said you did, but that's a pretty fundamental one wouldn't you agree?

In fact it's the basis for the entire treaty: Irish aspirations for self-determination are illegal.

[Gareth]

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
Matthew 5:6

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13.

They didn't do this at all. They were basically trying to get themselves out of punishment for carrying out crimes.

It's lovely picking and choosing however, the Bible does not condone violence, and says that we should accept punishment.

Matthew 5:25-26 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74764460) (in particular)
Matthew 26:52 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74764484) (on violence)
Romans 13:3 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74764516) (on State authorities)
Matthew 5:38-39 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=74764555)(on retaliation / revenge, also relevant)

I think my point is made.

[quirk]

They where getting off the punishment by allowing them selves to die? How convenient and cunning of them.

[Gareth]

Jesus was a terrorist in the sense that is how he was percieved, he was a threat to the Status Quo.

This isn't true. He was only considered a threat among traditional Pharasaic Jews. Many Jews embraced Him, as did Romans, Greeks, Phonecians, and Samaritans.


Exactly why the prisoners were on strike, they were not common criminals or terrorists but political prisoners who were fighting a war of libertation.

Were they not arrested they probably would have been responsible for the deaths of many.

[LARKIN32]

this as nothing to do with religion ...

[Enver]

Were they not arrested they probably would have been responsible for the deaths of many.

Some of them were responsible for the deaths of many crown forces personnel, yes, especially Vol. Francis Hughes. That's usually what happens in a war. Explain to me how killing occupying forces is criminal and what right does the occupying power have to determine what is and what isn't criminal?

[Enver]

They were basically trying to get themselves out of punishment for carrying out crimes.

So in your view POWs and political prisoners have no rights?

[Gareth]

this as nothing to do with religion ...

If they can quote Bible, I'll quote them right back.

[Gareth]

So in your view POWs and political prisoners have no rights?

They should have the same rights as normal prisoners, and if they aren't enough campaign for the whole prison surely. Not just for one particular group of people.

[Enver]

They should have the same rights as normal prisoners, and if they aren't enough campaign for the whole prison surely. Not just for one particular group of people.

Are you suggesting there's no difference between an IRA or INLA Volunteer and a rapist or drug dealer?

[Gareth]

different jail sentences perhaps.

[Enver]

different jail sentences perhaps.

I think I'd find it hard to stop myself from decking you if we were having a conversation in the flesh.

[quirk]

different jail sentences perhaps.

Do you think there something in the water up here that makes us have a greater tendency towards criminality?

[Gareth]

I'm not arguing that there wasn't issues in the British heirarchy, however there is an appropriate means for everything. Violence isn't it.

[Gareth]

I think I'd find it hard to stop myself from decking you if we were having a conversation in the flesh.

You're just an overly aggressive personality.

[Enver]

You're just an overly aggressive personality.

Not at all. I'm very quiet actually.

[An Céachta Dearg]

They should have the same rights as normal prisoners, and if they aren't enough campaign for the whole prison surely. Not just for one particular group of people.

"I'll wear no convicts uniform
Nor meekly serve my time
That Britain might
Brand Irelands fight
800 years of crime"

As for the point they would have resulted in the deaths of many. Most likely they would have yes, as Enever already pointed out Hughes and the mention of Hughes struck fear into many of the crown forces based around Bellaghy.

But the Crown forces who werent arrested also committed crimes did they not? Bloody Sunday remember that? 14 unarmed civilians? Remember Tatcher ordering the sinking of the Belgrano during the Malvinas war? Remeber the Shoot to kill policy?

Double Standards

[bay]

I'll wear no convicts uniform
Nor meekly serve my time
That Britain might
Brand Irelands fight
800 years of crime"

As for the point they would have resulted in the deaths of many. Most likely they would have yes, as Enever already pointed out Hughes and the mention of Hughes struck fear into many of the crown forces based around Bellaghy.

But the Crown forces who werent arrested also committed crimes did they not? Bloody Sunday remember that? 14 unarmed civilians? Remember Tatcher ordering the sinking of the Belgrano during the Malvinas war? Remeber the Shoot to kill policy?

Double Standards


exactly. Just who are the criminals here????

[Gareth]

"I'll wear no convicts uniform
Nor meekly serve my time
That Britain might
Brand Irelands fight
800 years of crime"

As for the point they would have resulted in the deaths of many. Most likely they would have yes, as Enever already pointed out Hughes and the mention of Hughes struck fear into many of the crown forces based around Bellaghy.

But the Crown forces who werent arrested also committed crimes did they not? Bloody Sunday remember that? 14 unarmed civilians? Remember Tatcher ordering the sinking of the Belgrano during the Malvinas war? Remeber the Shoot to kill policy?

Double Standards

Doesn't mean I have to regard either as heroes.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Doesn't mean I have to regard either as heroes.

Gareth man you just said they should have accepted their punishment and should have accepted the state how can you accept a state that commints atrocities in its own right without punishment!

[Gareth]

There are alternative ways of reforming state policy apart from engaging in violent activity.

[Enver]

Gareth man you just said they should have accepted their punishment and should have accepted the state how can you accept a state that commints atrocities in its own right without punishment!

So when did it become acceptable, the state that is?

[An Céachta Dearg]

So when did it become acceptable, the state that is?

The very first moment the Union was formed in 1803

[bay]

the problem is that gareth simply doesn't agree that part of ireland is under occupation by a foreign force.
If they've been here 800 years, then I suppose it's all right now, eh.

Gsreth, how do you reform state policy when the state is there illegally????????????????????????????/

there's no discussion, no reformation, you either accept british rule or you don't.

it's kind of like being sort of pregnant.

[Gareth]

the problem is that gareth simply doesn't agree that part of ireland is under occupation by a foreign force.
If they've been here 800 years, then I suppose it's all right now, eh.

Gsreth, how do you reform state policy when the state is there illegally????????????????????????????/

there's no discussion, no reformation, you either accept british rule or you don't.

it's kind of like being sort of pregnant.

You act almost as if I'm ignorant to my own country, I do live here you know.

I prefer reformation via parliamentary activity as had happened in various periods before hand. (1880 - 1912) I would have promoted Home Rule, and then use Home Rule as a means to independence as happened anyway, just a lot more people had to get butchered along the way.

That's a very simplistic view to take. You either support British rule or you don't? Through respecting State authorities they will in turn respect you. Through violence, if you hit a punch you will get a significantly bigger one back, it's the laws of disproportionate warfare, the small militants get a punch from the bigger state. All you need to do is look to Pakistan or Israel to see that.

[LARKIN32]

I think I'd find it hard to stop myself from decking you if we were having a conversation in the flesh.claps.:D

[bay]

Through respecting State authorities they will in turn respect you. Through violence,

Yes, my answer was simple, gareth, because enough treatises have been written on this subject.

If respecting the authorities worked,then there never would have been a civil rights movement in the US. Do you think that was all accomplished only going thru the channels and respecting the state and fed governments? Or bringing about an end to the vietnam war? Did that happen because we respected the government? No we challenged the government and kept challenging until things changed.

further back in our history, if the Colonists here had used that logic, we'd have pictures of the queen on our money today! They tried playing nice with the brits...didn't work.

there is a time for negotiation and going thru the channels and there's a time for resistance. Even Mahatma Ghandi's resistance still was resistance, it' wasn't a matter of following the rules and hoping the brits woudl be nice and reasonable.

You are right, Ireland isn't mo thi'r yet. so all I can offer is MHO.

I think my friend you are the one with the simplistic view or blinders on. If respecting state authorities brought about real peace, not the illusion of peace, there would be no conflict in this world.

[Gareth]

bay: you are blissfully unaware of some of the parliamentary reforms in relation to Land Acts and in the progression of home rule without using violent means in Ireland. I know the history. Parliamentary reform does happen.

[bay]

Ok. Educate me. Name some of the reforms and what they've accomplished.

[Gareth]

From the time when Irish affairs were dealt with in Westminster, I could give you a list. I'll have to get back to you on it.

[bay]

Thank you.

[LARKIN32]

that means...he doesnt know...

[Gareth]

The Education Acts of Benjamin Disraeli in relation to putting Irish into schools again, the Disestablishment Act 1869, and respective Home Rule Bills, and Land Reforms (theres a lot of these). All done in Westminster, without violence.

[bay]

and the outcome of these acts?

[Gareth]

Religious freedom in Ireland in relation to the 1869 Disestablishment, meaning Anglicanism was not the State faith, and Catholicism and Presbyterianism were regarded in the same way.

Home Rule bills eventually, was disrupted in several ways by violent spurts brought self government to Ireland once more.

Land Reforms allowed for many poor who were under the mercy of landlords to purchase their own homes. Hence why Irish do not like renting so much as their European counterparts.

[bay]

Let's take these one at a time

1869 Disestablishment, meaning Anglicanism was not the State faith, and Catholicism and Presbyterianism were regarded in the same way.


did this give Irish Catholics equality in the society compared to Presbyterians and Anglicans? Did they have the same opportunities for housing, jobs, education, respect?

Home Rule bills eventually, was disrupted in several ways by violent spurts brought self government to Ireland once more.


Self government for all of Ireland????


Land Reforms allowed for many poor who were under the mercy of landlords to purchase their own homes. Hence why Irish do not like renting so much as their European counterparts.

How successful were these land reforms? Did the average Irish family have a realistic chance to have land, a home, a business? I don't know the answer to this, I'm asking.

[Enver]

bay: you are blissfully unaware of some of the parliamentary reforms in relation to Land Acts and in the progression of home rule without using violent means in Ireland. I know the history. Parliamentary reform does happen.

Many advocates of Home Rule encouraged people to embrace the slaughter of WWI and sign up for the Crown forces. You do not beg for your rights – you take them, by force if necessary.

[Enver]

The very first moment the Union was formed in 1803

I'm sorry, what?!

[bay]

I'm sorry, what?!


that's what I was thinking as I spit my tea all over the computer

[An Céachta Dearg]

I'm sorry, what?!

that's what I was thinking as I spit my tea all over the computer

You are both aware of the term Irony!!

Enver by asking that question you were completly derailing the thread you knew where that argument would lead...

There is a thread set up for it so lets keep it in there... yeah?

[An Céachta Dearg]

did this give Irish Catholics equality in the society compared to Presbyterians and Anglicans? Did they have the same opportunities for housing, jobs, education, respect?.

It gave the Catholic church basic control over the education system in Ireland. The acts for Catholic emancipation were passed much earlier, what this act meant was that Catholics or Dissenters would no longer have to pay tax to uphold a church they were not a member of!



Self government for all of Ireland?????.

The type of government proposed was that of a Home Rule government. Ireland would have control over internal affairs but have no say in Taxation to the crown or foreign policy basically the situation you have in present dat Scotland.. thereby unacceptable to one who believes in a republic.




How successful were these land reforms? Did the average Irish family have a realistic chance to have land, a home, a business? I don't know the answer to this, I'm asking.


The land reforms in fairness were quite successful in that they moved the ownership of the land from the landlords to the tenants. However the tenants would still have to pay annuities to the British crown and this also accelerated the process of emigration from Ireland!

[bay]

Thank you so much for that explanation, Red!

Muchas Gracias!

[Gareth]

Many reforms were indeed made in Irish history from Westminister without the means of violence. Therefore I don't see why we could not have found our self detemination through peaceful means.

[Enver]

Many reforms were indeed made in Irish history from Westminister without the means of violence. Therefore I don't see why we could not have found our self detemination through peaceful means.

You would think our shared history with Britain was one of friendship and equality the way you're talking. Any reforms were completely token measures and in no way alleviated the horrendous poverty that ravaged Ireland in the mid to late 1800s. Don't forget that just decades before these reforms the British government and landlord class attempted to ethnically cleanse this country of the native Irish through famine. The UN has now even recognised the Great Famine as genocide, so don't even think about denying it was deliberate.

[Gareth]

Of course it wasn't there was many tensions, however history shows us that much was achieved without violence. I don't deny the famine either. However many things did change without violence. I for one think that if Home Rule was passed the way that it was intended to be without Easter Rising, Civil War etc we would have attained a republic through diplomacy and through declaration of a state.

[Enver]

Of course it wasn't there was many tensions, however history shows us that much was achieved without violence. I don't deny the famine either. However many things did change without violence. I for one think that if Home Rule was passed the way that it was intended to be without Easter Rising, Civil War etc we would have attained a republic through diplomacy and through declaration of a state.

There would have been a civil war even with Home Rule. The Unionists would never have accepted it.

[Gareth]

I guess, however the point of this tension was just before WW1. However they got their own arrangement I guess in the large scale of things. I happen to think the Civil War that did happen was totally unnecessary.

[An Céachta Dearg]

You would think our shared history with Britain was one of friendship and equality the way you're talking. Any reforms were completely token measures and in no way alleviated the horrendous poverty that ravaged Ireland in the mid to late 1800s.


Completly and utterly true. Remember Roger Casement, who had surveyed the conditions suffered by British subjects in what was considered the worst places for human conditions for human suffer under British rule like South Africa and Rhodesia. Casement said that the poverty he saw in Connaught was by far the worst poverty and living conditions he had ever seen people livinf in including those in Africa.


Don't forget that just decades before these reforms the British government and landlord class attempted to ethnically cleanse this country of the native Irish through famine. The UN has now even recognised the Great Famine as genocide, so don't even think about denying it was deliberate.

Can't disagree with any of that

[bay]

The parallels between the English/Irish history and the American/Native American history are tooooo eerie.

Invasion, land grabs, planned and forced poverty, starvation and disease, disruption of native language and culture.......


But then look where the original colonists came from....

[Enver]

I happen to think the Civil War that did happen was totally unnecessary.

I agree, but I suspect for different reasons than yourself.

[Al Fatiha]

You don't see the bravery because you're a spineless tramp who has a completely warped sense of morality that is fundamentally underlined by hypocracy.Is this not insulting another member Enver?

Something I recieved a couple of infractions for just a couple of days ago, plus a threat of banning?

Hypocritical double standard?

[Enver]

Is this not insulting another member Enver?

Something I recieved a couple of infractions for just a couple of days ago, plus a threat of banning?

Hypocritical double standard?

You spew out hate-filled insults which are based on your complete ignorance of homosexuality. Perhaps the language I used was a little too strong, but Gareth had made incredibly insulting remarks about men who were undoubtedly brave and principled, something you cannot deny regardless of you're political orientation. My rebuttal of his viewpoint was also a clear and concise argument; nothing like your anti-LGBTQ puke.

[Gareth]

I'm insulting because I don't see any form of heroism in that act? Surely you could convince me?

[Al Fatiha]

My rebuttal of his viewpoint was also a clear and concise argument;Calling another member a "spineless tramp" with a "warped morality"; is a clear and concise rebuttal of an argument??

[Enver]

I'm insulting because I don't see any form of heroism in that act? Surely you could convince me?

Okay.

Do you think you could starve yourself to death for your religious beliefs?

[Enver]

Calling another member a "spineless tramp" with a "warped morality"; is a clear and concise rebuttal of an argument??

Nope.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Calling another member a "spineless tramp" with a "warped morality"; is a clear and concise rebuttal of an argument??

Al approach the admin with your complaint. Or argue it elsewhere keep this thread for the respect of those who were murdered by the policies of Thatchers government.

[Enver]

Al approach the admin with your complaint. Or argue it elsewhere keep this thread for the respect of those who were murdered by the policies of Thatchers government.

Indeed.

I apologise for derailing it.

[Gareth]

Okay.

Do you think you could starve yourself to death for your religious beliefs?

I'm not going to claim either way until I would be in such a situation, however if I were to be martyred I'd like to think I could go through with it.

[LARKIN32]

Many reforms were indeed made in Irish history from Westminister without the means of violence. Therefore I don't see why we could not have found our self detemination through peaceful means.godness

[Phædrus]

goodness me... youre so naieve...

Nice spelling.

[LARKIN32]

yes thanks,no dots on i...sorry...

[Phædrus]

yes thanks,no dots on i...sorry...

It's naive (adj), noun is naivete. That's without the dots and accents.

[LARKIN32]

how do u spell colour?

[bay]

I say tomayto you say tomahto

[Gareth]

goodness me... youre so naieve...

It's historical fact that many were if you want to consult a history book on the matter.

[quirk]

Britain always gave certain concessions but this was to pacify the natives and the one thing they nave allowed was what the people desired - to exercise their right to sovereignty.

At present it is in my opinion it is impossible to pursue our goals through the British system in Ireland.

[Phædrus]

you assume everybody is as clever as you... must be all the americans on here..

Where the hell did that come from? He makes an argument and you don't even bother to start to refute it, you just skip straight to the insults.

[Gareth]

Why can't you argue with facts?

[Enver]

Why can't you argue with facts?

We all know the facts, some of us just seem to have the wrong opinion of these great men.

[Gareth]

We all know the facts, some of us just seem to have the wrong opinion of these great men.

Anyone in prison should be treated the same as anyone else. I don't see what purpose this strike served.

[LARKIN32]

human rights gareth...thats what its all about

[Viv]

Anyone in prison should be treated the same as anyone else. I don't see what purpose this strike served.

Aren't political prisoners often treated differently from common criminals?

[Enver]

Anyone in prison should be treated the same as anyone else. I don't see what purpose this strike served.

So when I come to power and put you and the rest of your Church in prison you want to be treated the same as a rapist or murderer? Okay.

[Vox Populi]

Anyone in prison should be treated the same as anyone else. I don't see what purpose this strike served.The British government and human rights organisations at various stages have accepted that Irish political prisoners are indeed political prisoners and deserve special recognition. If the involvment of a foreign government in Irish affairs ceased, then there would be no more young men finding themselves in prison for political offenses. Those prisoners actions are governed by a political belief, not criminal intent.

[Gareth]

So when I come to power and put you and the rest of your Church in prison you want to be treated the same as a rapist or murderer? Okay.

That isn't the logic at all. Carrying firearms with the intent of harming others is rightfully a crime. There is a difference.

[LARKIN32]

so by that standard are the british army in ireland and the ruc also crminals?

[Gareth]

State institutions are allowed to brandish weapons, in the means of defending the populace. If they abused their positions, which they most likely did they violated international law yes, making some of Britains acts to be criminal.

[BlackBaron]

That isn't the logic at all. Carrying firearms with the intent of harming others is rightfully a crime. There is a difference.

Gareth look please I believe that violence is evil, sometimes a necessary evil but never the less evil.

However please remember when people marched for very basic civil rights in the six counties they were beaten up, shot at and had their houses burned down in pograms while the "Police" either sat back or took part.

In 1969 people wrote on the walls "IRA=I Ran Away". The Provos grew out of a very real need that the nationalist Community in the 6 counties had to defend itself. The state up there was completely lawless.

People like Bobby Sands did not join the provos out of greed, lust for power or the sheer joy of aggression but to defend their communities, so that their families would never again have to know the terror of 1969 or 1962. That they would never again be left defenseless at the hands of the B-Specials and the Orange mobs.

Therefore you can in one way call them mere criminals.

They were soldiers fighting for hearth and homeland aganist a pompous and brutal enemny.

God have mercy on their souls and grant unto a share in the Heavenly homeland which cannot be taken away!

May their memory be Eternal!

[bay]

Thank you Larkin and Black Baron.

That isn't the logic at all. Carrying firearms with the intent of harming others is rightfully a crime.

Setting laws on the basis of intent is a very slippery slope.

[Gareth]

Oh so you endorse the carrying of firearms by known terrorist suspects?

[Enver]

Oh so you endorse the carrying of firearms by known terrorist suspects?

I think everyone should have the right to bear arms.

[BlackBaron]

Oh so you endorse the carrying of firearms by known terrorist suspects?

NO.

But I do endorse people defending their communities from being terrorized by a lawless occupying state that NEVER restrained evil launched aganist those communities by the orange mobs. So the goverment of the six counties doesnt pass the first test in terms of legitimacy. It was and maybe still is an evil anti-Authority.

There were sectarian pograms in the six counties you know before. The difference in the early 70s was that people started to fight back and defend themselves.

You should stop pretending that the situation up there was normal and that men like Bobby Sands found themselves in the IRA just for psychopathic kicks.
Also I dont understand that as a Christian you cannot admire their strength of purpose willingness to sacrafice themselves for a greater good even if you do think they were misguided.

[Gareth]

I think everyone should have the right to bear arms.

The further you go left, you end up meeting the same folk coming around from the other side so it seems.

[Gareth]

Also I dont understand that as a Christian you cannot admire their strength of purpose willingness to sacrafice themselves for a greater good even if you do think they were misguided.

I don't think it was for the greater good. Why should they appeal for more rights than general prisoners. If the conditions were really so bad, that is what their motivation should had been.

Am I so wrong not to see the heroism in this?

[BlackBaron]

I don't think it was for the greater good. Why should they appeal for more rights than general prisoners. If the conditions were really so bad, that is what their motivation should had been.

Am I so wrong not to see the heroism in this?

Defending your family and friends from torture, murder, arson, etc is for the greater good. If you read about the early history of the "Troubles" than I dont see how you could not admit that people were given no choice but to use guns to defend themselves. Peaceful means had not only gotten nowhere but had provoked greater and greater violence.

I have a hard time not putting milk in my coffee on Wensdays and Fridays. These men starved themselves to death rather than be criminalized for defending their communities. If you have ever tried to really fast you would have more understanding of why they should be respected.

Conditions for criminals were far superior to those of our Irish soldiers.

[quirk]

That isn't the logic at all. Carrying firearms with the intent of harming others is rightfully a crime. There is a difference.

Not all those in prison had carried arms and indeed many of them would have been set up. What about the internees?

Today the situation is the same, 4 people where arrested 3 weeks ago and are sitting in Portlaoise prison. They where not carrying weapons. But do you know what was used in evidence in their preliminary hearing to "prove" they where IRA volunteers? A copy of the works of Bobby Sands. Some justice system we have in Ireland.

[Gareth]

We have to deal with what we do know, not with hypothetical situations. If there was serious concern there should have been an investigation taken into the circumstances of their arrests.

[bay]

Today the situation is the same, 4 people where arrested 3 weeks ago and are sitting in Portlaoise prison. They where not carrying weapons. But do you know what was used in evidence in their preliminary hearing to "prove" they where IRA volunteers? A copy of the works of Bobby Sands. Some justice system we have in Ireland. bay makes sign of cross and asks angels to watch over these people and bring them justice.

We have to deal with what we do know, not with hypothetical situations. If there was serious concern there should have been an investigation taken into the circumstances of their arrests
Gareth, if you think they will have a fair and just investigation, you are living in a dream world.

[Gareth]

I didn't suggest they will. I'm suggesting that if it was such a huge concern to the Republican movement they would have called for such an investigation.

[bay]

They can call til they are blue in the face! Doesn't mean it will happen.

[BlackBaron]

Am I so wrong not to see the heroism in this?

Gareth you completely ignore my main point. Life in the occupied six counties was far from "normal" than. There was no Authority in any remotely Biblical sense. People for very good reasons felt they had no choice but to pick up the gun to defend their homes and families....Have you no empathy at all with those reasons? Can you not see what motivated the hunger strikers and their comrades?

And again remember how peaceful protests were met with live rounds and beatings.

[Gareth]

Actually authority in Biblical New Testament situation was occupation also, and revolting did nobody any good except caused the Diaspora.

Anyhow back on topic. Since when does the behaviour of others excuse violence? An eye for an eye would make everyone blind. The law was that whoeever carries a gun illegally faces a jail sentence, and that's what Sands got. I don't understand how else I could put it.

[LARKIN32]

I think everyone should have the right to bear arms.

bear arms?

[Enver]

Actually authority in Biblical New Testament situation was occupation also, and revolting did nobody any good except caused the Diaspora.

Anyhow back on topic. Since when does the behaviour of others excuse violence? An eye for an eye would make everyone blind. The law was that whoeever carries a gun illegally faces a jail sentence, and that's what Sands got. I don't understand how else I could put it.

Nazi law permitted many horrible things - was that okay too?

[An Céachta Dearg]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2dJGj8mIUxg

[BlackBaron]

Actually authority in Biblical New Testament situation was occupation also, and revolting did nobody any good except caused the Diaspora.

Anyhow back on topic. Since when does the behaviour of others excuse violence? An eye for an eye would make everyone blind. The law was that whoeever carries a gun illegally faces a jail sentence, and that's what Sands got. I don't understand how else I could put it.

Gareth the Roman's kept a basic (maybe very basic at times) Justice. There was no justice for the nationalist population in the occupied Six counties. Their houses were been burnt down, it was acceptable for the "police" or loyalist mobs to murder them from time to time....That some people felt that this situation was impossible to endure without defending themselves is understandable and indeed praiseworthy as far as I am concerned.

Do you consider the Norman invasion of Ireland as legitimate?

[Gareth]

Nazi law permitted many horrible things - was that okay too?

When in this thread have I said that abuse of British authority positions was okay?

[Enver]

When in this thread have I said that abuse of British authority positions was okay?

You haven't, but you have stated that British law & order is acceptable in Ireland.

[Gareth]

I suggested that the law regarding illegal gun possession was a rightful charge, as it is in most legal systems.

[Enver]

I suggested that the law regarding illegal gun possession was a rightful charge, as it is in most legal systems.

Combatants are generally armed during wartime.

[Gareth]

I wouldn't define it as war. It was not two state entities. It was a minority uprising, or a revolt, which failed. Many innocents died, it was more to scare the people into a certain mindset more than anything else. Thank God it is over.

[BlackBaron]

You haven't, but you have stated that British law & order is acceptable in Ireland.

Enver the point is there was no British law and order in Ireland.

Did the B-Specials do anything to protect Nationalist areas in 1969?

People joined the IRA in order to have some law and order.

Gareth doesnt seem to appreciate this and therefore is silly statement about the IRA being common criminals.

[BlackBaron]

I wouldn't define it as war. It was not two state entities. It was a minority uprising, or a revolt, which failed. Many innocents died, it was more to scare the people into a certain mindset more than anything else. Thank God it is over.

The only way to secure lasting peace in Ireland is complete British withdrawal. That has not happened yet.

[Enver]

I wouldn't define it as war.

How would you define a war then?

It was not two state entities.

So the only type of conflict that can be described as a war is one involving two states?

It was a minority uprising, or a revolt, which failed.

Those doing the fighting may have been in the minority, but the cause for which they fought was certainly popular amongst the majority of Irish people.

Many innocents died

Indeed.

It was more to scare the people into a certain mindset more than anything else.

That was the purpose of British state-sponsored terror in Ireland, yes. And it has proved to be incredibly successful in cowing the general population into capitulating to British rule.

Thank God it is over.

It isn't even close to being over.

[Gareth]

Those doing the fighting may have been in the minority, but the cause for which they fought was certainly popular amongst the majority of Irish people

That's where the issue lies. Those who consider themselves Irish were a minority. Therefore that is irrelevant, it was still for a minority of people in a land where in the large scale of things the majority did not consider themselves Irish.

[Gareth]

Gareth doesnt seem to appreciate this and therefore is silly statement about the IRA being common criminals.

Murder is a crime. That's fact. I don't support murder whether state sponsored or civilian sponsored. It's a disgrace.

[Enver]

That's where the issue lies. Those who consider themselves Irish were a minority. Therefore that is irrelevant, it was still for a minority of people in a land where in the large scale of things the majority did not consider themselves Irish.

Irish people are a minority group in Ireland?

As for land: only one out of six of the occupied counties has a Unionist majority.

[Enver]

Murder is a crime. That's fact. I don't support murder whether state sponsored or civilian sponsored. It's a disgrace.

Only when God murders is it acceptable, because he's super duper.

[Gareth]

Irish people are a minority group in Ireland?

As for land: only one out of six of the occupied counties has a Unionist majority.

In the boundaries of Northern Ireland, which is distinct from the Republic politically, yes they are a minority. And more relevant during the armed campaign during the Trouble, they most certainly were a minority.

[Enver]

In the boundaries of Northern Ireland, which is distinct from the Republic politically, yes they are a minority. And more relevant during the armed campaign during the Trouble, they most certainly were a minority.

'Northern Ireland' is an illegal statelet.

And you're dodging the point about only Antrim having a Unionist majority - explain to me how this justifies areas like Derry, Tyrone, South Armagh and South Down remaining under British rule?

[Gareth]

The majority population of the region in total, is still majority Unionist. I believe the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 allowed for consultation if a majority Nationalist population was achieved in the region (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Enver]

The majority population of the region in total, is still majority Unionist.

Just about.

I believe the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 allowed for consultation if a majority Nationalist population was achieved in the region (correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm not sure, but I doubt it.

That would have meant the secession of at least 4 counties and perhaps half of Down.

[BlackBaron]

Murder is a crime. That's fact. I don't support murder whether state sponsored or civilian sponsored. It's a disgrace.

So if a psychopath was attacking your mother or girlfriend and there was no way the Garda could get there on time you would not defend them?

[Gareth]

This definetely does not apply to the IRA situation. However if I was in an altercation, I would like to think I'd put myself in their place, and try to let them go free. I haven't been in this situation yet thank God.

[BlackBaron]

This definetely does not apply to the IRA situation.

Yes it does. Read your history.

The brutal putting down of the civil rights movement led to the creation of the Provos.

People had very good reason to think that picking up the gun was their ONLY choice.

I do not understand why you cant see that.

Even a Unionist friend of mine who's uncle was killed by the IRA admits that it was far from a normal situation and that there was a lot of wrong on his side.

Again do you consider the Norman invasion of Ireland legitimate?

[Enver]

This definetely does not apply to the IRA situation. However if I was in an altercation, I would like to think I'd put myself in their place, and try to let them go free. I haven't been in this situation yet thank God.

So you'd put yourself and your loved ones at risk just so some scumbag can go free?

[Enver]

Yes it does. Read your history.

The brutal putting down of the civil rights movement led to the creation of the Provos.

People had very good reason to think that picking up the gun was their ONLY choice.

I do not understand why you cant see that.

Even a Unionist friend of mine who's uncle was killed by the IRA admits that it was far from a normal situation and that there was a lot of wrong on his side.

Again do you consider the Norman invasion of Ireland legitimate?

"My mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts"

[Gareth]

Yes it does. Read your history.

The brutal putting down of the civil rights movement led to the creation of the Provos.

People had very good reason to think that picking up the gun was their ONLY choice.

I do not understand why you cant see that.

Even a Unionist friend of mine who's uncle was killed by the IRA admits that it was far from a normal situation and that there was a lot of wrong on his side.

Again do you consider the Norman invasion of Ireland legitimate?

There is wrong on both sides of the equation. As for the Norman invasion, it was sponsored by the King of Leinster as far as I'm aware? Anyhow, I personally do not wish to contest Norman invasion as it's evident that practically every single person in Ireland is descended from them in some shape or form, seems a bit futile to me. It seems to me that the Ulster Plantation was by far the root cause of the tensions. However then again I'm descended from said settlers, as are a lot of other Irish people. We have to take what we have now, and work towards a lasting peace. Instead of scuffling over the past to be honest.

If I think that I should pick up a shotgun and thought I had no other choice, would that make it any more morally acceptable?

[Enver]

There is wrong on both sides of the equation. As for the Norman invasion, it was sponsored by the King of Leinster as far as I'm aware?

Actually it was consented to and sponsored by the Papacy of the time.

We have to take what we have now, and work towards a lasting peace. Instead of scuffling over the past to be honest.

You are deliberately ignoring the truth as it is inconvenient. The British usurpation of Irish national sovereignty and democracy is the root cause of the conflict.

[BlackBaron]

There is wrong on both sides of the equation. As for the Norman invasion, it was sponsored by the King of Leinster as far as I'm aware? Anyhow, I personally do not wish to contest Norman invasion as it's evident that practically every single person in Ireland is descended from them in some shape or form, seems a bit futile to me. It seems to me that the Ulster Plantation was by far the root cause of the tensions. However then again I'm descended from said settlers, as are a lot of other Irish people. We have to take what we have now, and work towards a lasting peace. Instead of scuffling over the past to be honest.

Yes there the IRA did do many wrongs things....but lets compare them to the British state's loyalist death squads who targeted people solely based on their Religion and we will see quite a difference. People act wildly sometimes in desperate situations.

Abortion is wrong but I would hope that God judges differently someone in poverty and without supports who aborts because they feel it is their only choice and some It-girl who gets pregnant to get that "glow" and than pays some doctor to kill her child. I think that sums up the difference between the violence of the IRA and the violence of the British State (have you ever seen pictures of how they treated their own miners in the strike of 1984?).

[Gareth]

It's a two sided conflict entirely. I don't see any side as having the moral highground.

[Enver]

It's a two sided conflict entirely. I don't see any side as having the moral highground.

But then you're completely ignoring the facts and don't deserve to be debated with, I'm sorry.

Just can't take you seriously on this topic.

[BlackBaron]

Actually it was consented to and sponsored by the Papacy of the time.


The Normans invaded England with the blessing of the Pope to destory Orthodoxy and in the process butchered a quartet of the population.

http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20FALL%20OF%20ORTHODOX%20ENGLAND%205X8.htm

[BlackBaron]

It's a two sided conflict entirely. I don't see any side as having the moral highground.

Yet you have called Irish soldiers common criminals?????

[Gareth]

But then you're completely ignoring the facts and don't deserve to be debated with, I'm sorry.

Just can't take you seriously on this topic.

How?

Republicans have been involved in murders just as much as the Loyalists have. I believe you are the one who is clouded with bias and is clearly unable to look to the clear fact that this conflict is two sided and always has been two sided.

[Gareth]

Yet you have called Irish soldiers common criminals?????

How dare you brand the IRA as the Irish military? What a load of it really.

Irish soldiers have served in honest positions all over the face of the world. The IRA have funded and supported militant terrorist activity. I can only say to you the common phrase applies here, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

I will never recognise the IRA as the army of Ireland or a military. And yes, they were criminals in supporting the shedding of innocent blood.

[BlackBaron]

Republicans have been involved in murders just as much as the Loyalists have..

The loyalists were paid for and given intelligence by the British state. They, the same people who went into pubs and machine gunned civilians, were a part of what you consider the legitimate goverment in the north that people were criminal from resisting.

[Gareth]

Did I condone this?

[BlackBaron]

Did I condone this?

No.

But you have condemned people fighting back to defend their communities from such evil.

[Enver]

How dare you brand the IRA as the Irish military? What a load of it really.

Irish soldiers have served in honest positions all over the face of the world. The IRA have funded and supported militant terrorist activity. I can only say to you the common phrase applies here, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

I will never recognise the IRA as the army of Ireland or a military. And yes, they were criminals in supporting the shedding of innocent blood.

That says it all really.

[Gareth]

No.

But you have condemned people fighting back to defend their communities from such evil.

I condemn any fighting at all.

[BlackBaron]

I condemn any fighting at all.

Do you condemn the fighting of the British state in Ireland?

[BlackBaron]

That says it all really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybcgc8BQlQQ&feature=related

[Gareth]

Do you condemn the fighting of the British state in Ireland?

The reality is that there was offensives on the UK mainland also.

[Enver]

The reality is that there was offensives on the UK mainland also.

Don't call it the mainland – you're suggesting many of my friends and relatives are foreigners in their own country.

What about the British state's attacks in Monaghan and Dublin?

[Gareth]

That's the facts of the matter. There is the UK mainland, then Northern Ireland, Channel Islands, Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands etc which are UK foreign territory.

[BlackBaron]

The reality is that there was offensives on the UK mainland also.

Yes there were. What is your point?

[Gareth]

This isn't a measure of self defence, it was also an offensive. Cannot be condoned under your religious standards either surely BlackBaron?

[BlackBaron]

Today the situation is the same, 4 people where arrested 3 weeks ago and are sitting in Portlaoise prison. They where not carrying weapons. But do you know what was used in evidence in their preliminary hearing to "prove" they where IRA volunteers? A copy of the works of Bobby Sands. Some justice system we have in Ireland.

Quirk was is the attitude of Sinn Fein to these people imprisoned for love of their fatherland?

[BlackBaron]

This isn't a measure of self defence, it was also an offensive. Cannot be condoned under your religious standards either surely BlackBaron?

I do not believe it is sinful to defend your fatherland even when that involves attacking the homeland of its enemnies if they are attacking you.

The cause of the violence in the six counties was British occupation and oppression. If that cause had not been there those who had been the IRA would not have done what they did. Can you not see that?

[Enver]

Quirk was is the attitude of Sinn Fein to these people imprisoned for love of their fatherland?

Sinn Fein have been quiet on this particluar incident, but they fully endorse the arrest and imprisonment of Republicans.

[BlackBaron]

Sinn Fein have been quiet on this particluar incident, but they fully endorse the arrest and imprisonment of Republicans.


The people who suffered most in during the "Troubles" were the besieged nationalist communities in places like the Falls Road, the Bogside, etc. That they would want peace desperately is something that I think only a psychopath could not empathize with. However the root cause of the violence does not seem to be being dealt with at all. In many ways Partition has been strengthened by the current process and not weakened. Also given the history of the occupied six counties I cannot understand at all how the IRA could destory their weapons. While I respect Republican Sinn Fein in many ways and believe that their policies offer the best solution to securing real peace and social justice in Ireland I cannot see how an armed campaign by a small group of people with no popular support could achieve anything. It is saddening to see that Sinn Fein actually endorses though the arrest of Republicans opposed to the current process. Are you sure about this?

[Enver]

The people who suffered most in during the "Troubles" were the besieged nationalist communities in places like the Falls Road, the Bogside, etc. That they would want peace desperately is something that I think only a psychopath could not empathize with. However the root cause of the violence does not seem to be being dealt with at all. In many ways Partition has been strengthened by the current process and not weakened. Also given the history of the occupied six counties I cannot understand at all how the IRA could destory their weapons. While I respect Republican Sinn Fein in many ways and believe that their policies offer the best solution to securing real peace and social justice in Ireland I cannot see how an armed campaign by a small group of people with no popular support could achieve anything. It is saddening to see that Sinn Fein actually endorses though the arrest of Republicans opposed to the current process. Are you sure about this?

Of course I'm sure.

Not only that but they also encourage people within the nationalist community to inform on Republican activists by taking any information they may have to the RUC/PSNI.

[BlackBaron]

Of course I'm sure.

Not only that but they also encourage people within the nationalist community to inform on Republican activists by taking any information they may have to the RUC/PSNI.

So they have completely accepted the legitimacy of the Six county statelet?

Wow.

[An Céachta Dearg]

Theres no point even entering this debate *sigh*

[ciaranxavier]

So they have completely accepted the legitimacy of the Six county statelet?

Wow.

he serious, they are working with stormont, and asking that anyone who knows "dissident" republicans should report them to the newly revamped PSNI.

[Enver]

Theres no point even entering this debate *sigh*

Are you denying they support a British capitalist police force and recognise the state which it defends?

[Enver]

So they have completely accepted the legitimacy of the Six county statelet?

Wow.

Yup.

[BlackBaron]

Are you denying they support a British capitalist police force and recognise the state which it defends?

The British state never had any right to be in Ireland, does not have a right to be in Ireland and never can have a right to be in Ireland. If you do not believe that you cannot call yourself an Irish Republican.

[quirk]

So they have completely accepted the legitimacy of the Six county statelet?

Wow.

The GFA recognises Westminster as the legitimate sovereign authority in the six counties. PSF signed up to this so yes they have completely recognised it.

[quirk]

I just put the recent movie about the hunger strikes called H3 in the movie section for anyone interested:

http://worldagenda.net/forum/vbtube_show.php?do=tube&tubeid=80

[bay]

thank you quirk

[Nijinsky]

I condemn any fighting at all.


So you are a pacifist are you?

[Draoch-Phingin]

They were criminals. I don't see why "political prisoners" should be distinguished from anyone else. If it was for general prisoners rights I might understand.

At the start of the Troubles, Irish Republicans and interned men (many were not republicans) were segregated from criminals, wore their own clothes, their elected officers were recognised by the British in negotiations, did not have to work like other prisoners, had free association and so on. The British only changed this policy as a tactic to undermine republicans and portray them as criminals.