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greektzon
07-19-2008, 10:46 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4360655.ece

A pamphlet warning Britons to leave the Middle East or face death has come to light in a stash of illicit propaganda.
The document does not hail from Basra or Baghdad, nor was it penned by the Islamists of al-Qaeda or the al-Mahdi Army.
It was found in Haifa, about 60 years ago, and it was issued by the underground group led by Menachem Begin – the future Prime Minister of Israel and winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

The document, which surfaced at an auction house this week, is addressed to “the soldiers of the occupation army” and aimed at British soldiers serving in Palestine, then under the British Mandate, preceding the establishment of Israel in 1948.
The print has faded and the paper has discoloured since it was unearthed from a grove of trees in Haifa in the summer of 1947. Yet the language and the concerns remain current.
Bombings and murders by underground groups, such as Begin’s Irgun, hastened the British withdrawal and the United Nations declaration that led to the founding of modern Israel.

Irgun propaganda targeted the British Army’s wavering morale, already dented by the bomb attack on the Mandate’s headquarters – the King David Hotel in Jerusalem – which killed 91 people.
In the document, Irgun tells British troops: “It is unavoidable that many Jewish soldiers and many British soldiers should fall.
And it is only fair that these people know at least why they may be killed.”
It adds: “Most of you have been in this country for quite a long time. You have learned what the word ‘terrorist’ means, some of you may even have come into direct contact with them (and heartily desire not to repeat the experience). But what do you know about them? Why does a young man go underground?”

It then draws a parallel with what would have happened if, seven years earlier, Britain had been overrun by Nazi Germany. “Remember 1940. Then it seemed quite possible that your island country would be conquered and subjugated by Hitler hordes . . . what would you have done? Would you have gone underground?”
The pamphlet says that the occupation is “illegal and immoral” and “parallel to the mass assassination of a whole people”, in language that echoes that used on a note pinned to the booby-trapped bodies of two British intelligence officers executed by Irgun that same summer.
The pamphlet came from a stash confiscated and burnt by cyptographers from the Royal Signals regiment.
Corporal Raymond Smith found them buried in a secluded grove marked by a white Star of David and was ordered to destroy them, but took one as a memento.
A collector acquired the document from Corporal Smith, and brought it to Mullock’s auctioneers in Shropshire.

Richard Westwood-Brookes, Mullock’s historical documents specialist, said the pamphlet was a remarkable find, which “ amounted to a manifesto for terrorist action”.
He added: “It also raises the question as to who are ‘terrorists’ and who are ‘freedom fighters’.
It’s a debate which raged through the troubles of Northern Ireland and continues in the Middle East.”
Begin’s Irgun set aside its differences with Haganah, a rival underground Jewish group led by David Ben Gurion – the first Prime Minister of Israel, who once likened Begin to Adolf Hitler.
Begin forged a political career as a hardliner, but, after becoming Prime Minister, signed the Camp David agreement with Egypt in 1979.
The pamphlet, which is expected to fetch about £500, goes on sale at Mullock’s, in Shropshire, on August 6.

ciaranxavier
07-19-2008, 10:48 PM
please give responses with your articles. it helps to start the discussion off.

Gareth
07-20-2008, 08:40 AM
We all know that the Jewish people organised militant groups such as the Haganah (for defensive reasons in 1921), and the Irgun (as the militant group to further Zionism). We all know that the Arabs had militant groups also.

quirk
09-11-2008, 01:23 PM
But if the Israelis call resistance groups today terrorists then they must also say that their state was founded on illigitimate terrorism.

Gareth
09-13-2008, 04:45 PM
Indeed, also you must put the same standards on the IRA and Ireland then if you are to make that comparison. I don't see it as such I see militant groups in the past from being separate from the modern Israeli state, as I see Ireland as separate from the IRA.

quirk
09-15-2008, 08:19 PM
Indeed, also you must put the same standards on the IRA and Ireland then if you are to make that comparison. I don't see it as such I see militant groups in the past from being separate from the modern Israeli state, as I see Ireland as separate from the IRA.

But it wasn't me putting the label on them so the IRA point is irrelevant.

As for the militant groups being separate from the state that isn't what I was trying to say. What I was suggesting is that by their own logic they must see their state as being founded as terrorists and as they won't condemn that terrorism and see it as legitimate they are being hypocritical in relation to other organisations today who employ similar means.

Gareth
09-18-2008, 11:03 AM
But it wasn't me putting the label on them so the IRA point is irrelevant.

As for the militant groups being separate from the state that isn't what I was trying to say. What I was suggesting is that by their own logic they must see their state as being founded as terrorists and as they won't condemn that terrorism and see it as legitimate they are being hypocritical in relation to other organisations today who employ similar means.

Their state was definitely not founded by terrorism though. It's rather clear that Israel came into being through diplomacy moreso than through violence if you have ever read the histories of the Jews in Israel from the late 1800's until 1948. The Balfour Declaration of 1917, then the UN Negotiations in the 1940's.

quirk
09-18-2008, 12:06 PM
Their state was definitely not founded by terrorism though. It's rather clear that Israel came into being through diplomacy moreso than through violence if you have ever read the histories of the Jews in Israel from the late 1800's until 1948. The Balfour Declaration of 1917, then the UN Negotiations in the 1940's.

And the Palestinians? Did they agree to this?

LARKIN32
09-18-2008, 05:25 PM
i can't believe somebody could think the isreali state was created by diplomacy.
even by their own standards that sounds ridiculous.
next they'll be saying the palestinians don't exist,that there 2 legged beasts from the arabian peninusula,and that jesus will be the first PM of a zionist state.

Gareth
09-18-2008, 05:38 PM
Well Larkin, it's common historical fact that for the most part Israel was formed through diplomacy. And Quirk, there wasn't any agreement from the Palestinian end at all because they hadn't sought for nation status until about 1936 according to the Peel Commission report. As for the first president of Israel, we all know that Chaim Weizmann was the first president, and David Ben Gurion was the first Prime Minister. If you cannot see that the Zionists used diplomacy throughout their campaign from 1886 onwards, you are truly deluded or ignorant of the historical facts.

LARKIN32
09-18-2008, 08:53 PM
when you see things in a context of how they really are [and put religion to one side].then you can speak of historical facts.
the swedish u.n. representative was assassinated by the zionists.in the late 40s
why ?.because they have great ways with diplomacy.eh?
thats one example.in relation to the topic.
i'll leave it here... at least if you're going to quote socalled facts.
try and understand the history.as well as the culture of non western people.
amigo ,you sound worse than most internet zionists i read stuff by.
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Gareth
09-18-2008, 10:20 PM
Yeah, Larkin I'm actually talking purely history. Consult the history books seriously man, otherwise you are going to delude yourself.

Look and if you are going to make accusations about the Israelis in the 1940's and Swedish UN reps please provide sources. If you provide anything reputable I will accept it, from an academic historical source.

LARKIN32
09-19-2008, 12:25 AM
lol

Gareth
09-19-2008, 12:44 PM
So are you going to provide a source? it would be useful if you want to back up your point.

quirk
09-19-2008, 01:25 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte

I know wiki isnt a reliable source but it has the primary sources listed at the bottom.

Gareth
09-19-2008, 01:49 PM
Yes, I can accept that source. The Lehi and the Irgun were notorious, but that doesn't negate the fact that most of how Zionism came into play was through diplomacy before splinter violence. These groups if I am correct didn't even conduct the negotiations. The Zionist Congress was involved not these terrorist groups. It's like saying that the CIRA were involved in the Good Friday Agreement.

LARKIN32
09-24-2008, 05:34 PM
So are you going to provide a source? it would be useful if you want to back up your point.well heres a quote for those that may want to know.........one united nations emissary was different.count folke bernadotte had arrived in Palestine on 20 may and stayed there until jewish terrorists murdered him in september for having 'dared' to put forward a proposal to re-divide the country in half,and to demand the unconditional return of all the refugees.He had already callled for the refugees' repatriation during the first truce,which had been ignored ,and when he repeated his recommendation in the final report he submitted to the UN,he was assassinated.still,it is thanks to Bernadotte that in december 1948,the UN general assembly posthumously adopted his legacy and recommended the unqualified return of all refugees 'Isreal' had expelled ,one of a host of UN resolutions Isreal has systematically ignored.As president of the Swedish Red Cross ,Bernadotte had been instrumental in saving jews from the nazis during the Second World War and this was why the Isreali government had agreed to his appointment as a UN mediator:they had not expected him to try to do for the Palestinians what he had done for the jews in europe only a few years earlier.


brief extract from "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine"...by ILLAN PAPPE.
this is but one example...

Gareth
09-24-2008, 09:28 PM
Thank you I accept that Jewish militants killed this man, and this was appauling. However for the most part the negotiations towards a Jewish state used diplomatic means through the Zionist Congress, and through negotiations with Britain in the Balfour Declaration. It's important to keep the militants separate from those who entered diplomacy:

David Ben Gurion and Chaim Weizmann were involved in the political foundation of Israel, through the diplomacy also, not the militants. At least I don't know any militants apart from in the Haganah that came to power in Israel in their first government in reasonably high positions.

LARKIN32
09-25-2008, 04:18 PM
gareth .
read the book above for a beginners guide to examining so-called zionist diplomacy.
ben-gurion was a terrorist.who do you think the hagannah and the other terrorists were run by.?
bengurion .they are the forunner to the iof[n.b.]
he was the main man involved in ethnic cleansing.weizzman was a colonialist racist too.

Gareth
09-25-2008, 07:46 PM
Interesting Larkin, how about reading about how or why the Haganah had come into being?

(Source if interested: Israel, Martin Gilbert)