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View Full Version : The Porn Debate: Wrapping Profit in the Flag


quirk
01-09-2008, 09:32 PM
Stan Goff

There was a period of time, when I was very young and chafing in my adolescence against all 'authority,' that I read the preposterous novels of Ayn Rand and eventually embraced libertarianism. That's one of the two things I can find in my own experience to relate to the questions raised by the Nina Hartley response to Chyng Sun's Counterpunch piece two days earlier in which Dr. Sun described pornography's connection to male sexuality constructed as aggression. The other dimension I can relate to is pornography itself, which _ along with prostitution _ has been a perennial facet of the military culture where I spent most of my adult life.

Now there is a digital market distribution of pornography, which has blended prostitution with pornography in the capitalist drive to further commodify sex. That makes it easy for me, right now, to Google-search "porn," get about a million pop-ups, and check the validity of Hartley's contention that:

"None of the diversity of our vibrant, raucous and contentious creative culture seems to have attracted Professor Sun's notice. By focusing on one or two examples she finds particularly heinous, she obscures the broader truth, which is that the marketplace of sexual entertainment contains products for almost every taste and orientation, including material made by and for heterosexual women and couples, lesbians and gay men. It's not all Bang Bus, and by no means does all of it, or even most of it, conform to the author's notions of porn-as-expression-of-misogyny."

Actually, in the words of my great grandmother, an earthy Oklahoma Cherokee who would know, "That's horseshit."

Anyone who doesn't believe me can bring up Google and have a look. I find a porn review site called "Pornliving" there, in which there is a menu of pornographic categories, which lists Amateur (which closer inspection reveals is not exactly true, since these are capitalist ventures), Anal, Asian, Big Tits, Black Girls, Black on White, Blow Jobs, Celebrity, Fetish, Gothic, Hardcore, Latina, Lesbian (in which none of the shaven, siliconed women featured bear the least resemblance to the lesbians I know), Live, Mature, Multiple Models, Pantyhose, Pornstar, Single Model, Soft Core, Teens, Video. In case the blatant racist-sexism of some of these categories or the dehumanization and objectification of women as body parts fails to even bump one's outrage meter, a peek inside any one of the many sites listed typically describes key forms of sexual action (which is the commodity) _ like ejaculating in women's faces, stretching their anuses with various and often damaging forms of penetration, and gagging them during fellatio _ and the vast majority of these sites refer to women in terms like cum-hungry slut, nasty little bitch, etc.

Ms. Hartley's contention that this is an aberration within a much more benign industry is patently untrue. If she wants to defend it using the First Amendment, she should at least be honest enough to describe this industry accurately. The overwhelming majority of pornography consumers are men. They seek out specific content that arouses them in order to jack off. They are motivated by constructions of sexuality for which they have been socialized. Dominant constructions of sexuality associate masculinity with both misogyny and aggression. Period. The desire to ejaculate in a woman's face, who you see as a 'cum-hungry slut,' is not innate.

The ubiquitous nature of internet commodified prostitution and pornography has only served to reinforce the notion of sexuality as an abstraction and to hide the concrete reality of sexual degradation and slavery. The reality of the world's third most lucrative industry (right after weapons and drugs) is that it is a daily social catastrophe among millions of women... as well as millions of children, where in the real world beyond the white American comforts of so-called sex-radicals, these women and children have been thrown off the land and into various forms of sexual slavery. The sex libertarians of the porn industry won't mention this, even though a significant number of the women featured in much of this new porn are precisely these refugees from global destabilization and poverty.

When Dr. Sun and others point out that this is an industry, all we hear from Nina Hartley and her partisans are paeans to so-called 'sex radicals,' like Carol Queen, who claim it is a culture. After Linda Marchiano (renamed 'Linda Lovelace' by her rapist-pimp husband, Chuck Traynor) went public about how Traynor had habitually beaten her, sold her to other men, forced her to have sex with a dog, and forced her to make porn films for his own profit, Hartley's pal Carol Queen referred to Marchiano dismissively as "Linda-he-had-to-put-a-gun-to-my-head-to-make-me-fuck-that-dog-Lovelace." This, presumably, is the 'sex-radical' take on rape and battering.

Pornography and prostitution _ in the material world _ are overwhelmingly not 'choices.' They are vast, exploitative, patriarchal-capitalist industries, largely violent, very lucrative, controlled by women-hating men, and destructive of the women (and children) who are victimized by them. Most of the women who are prostituted (including those who are used to produce pornography) are poor, disproportionately from oppressed groups, frequently drug-addicted, the vast majority showing clear signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, and wanting out. The majority suffered from sexual abuse as children, and many were first 'turned out' as minors. Many new prostitutes are 'broken in' through gang rape, and constantly abused by pimps.

These claims are based on extensive research, not the anecdotal interviews with industry spokespersons suggested to Chyng Sun by Nina Hartley. The anthology, Not For Sale _ Feminist Resisting Prostitution and Pornography, edited by Christine Stark and Rebecca Whisnant, cites this research extensively, for anyone who is interested in actually studying this predatory industry.

The 'bad girl' image coveted by 'sex radicals' is a pure exercise of class and national privilege that intentionally ignores how they provide cover for this industry and the dangerous, sometimes deadly, realities behind it. Their 'choices' always trump the reality of those trapped in prostitution and pornography, and their solution is not to attack the industry, but to call those enslaved within it 'sex workers,' and claim that what they need are unions. Presumably, the unions could sign contracts with the pimps to limit the 'break-in-by-gang-rape' periods.

"In the sex radical analysis, there are good girls and bad girls. The good girls are those _ whether heterosexual, lesbian, or bisexual _ who engage in 'vanilla' (that is, non-commercial and non-sadomasochistic) sex. The bad girls are whores, women who use pornography, women who sexualize children, and women who buy prostituted women: 'Whores, sluts, and dykes are bad girls, bad because we are sexually deviant' (Queen, 1997). Sex Radicals define prostitution as a sexuality and then link that to homosexuality, the sexual use of children by adults, and sadomasochism, calling them 'sexual outlaws'. They claim to be censored and discriminated against, not by pimps, tricks, wife beaters, racists, corporations, and daddy rapists, but by feminists fighting sexual violence, racism, and poverty. The sex radicals' 'good girl-bad girl' analysis is nothing new or radical; it merely reproduces the conservative patriarchal dichotomy between madonna and whore. Sex radicals simply reverse the valuation attached to the two sides: here bad girls are to be celebrated for their rebellion and audacity, while good girls are scorned and mocked as boring, repressed, and obedientÅc Queen and other sex radicals have a rebellious, adolescent-style reaction to sex: what they perceive as being 'different' or rebellious is good, period. What sex radicals lack in thoughtfulness and feminist analysis they make up for by appealing to emotion. They channel women's valid anger and desire to rebel against patriarchy into their political camp by misrepresenting the term sex radical. True sex radicalism would mean recognizing structures of inequality and oppression, working toward egalitarian relationships, and aligning with those who do not have social or political power _ such as women and children hurt in pornography and prostitution..." (Christine Stark, Stark & Whisnant ed., pp. 278-291)

The claim by 'sex radicals' _ repeated by Hartley in her piece _ that anti-pornography feminists (usually radical feminists, whose analysis of gender as a system of power is the most advanced) are either Victorian or opposed to the women who are engaged in prostitution and pornography is not only specious, it is a deliberate misrepresentation designed to interdict further study of the work these women have done.

Everyone I have ever engaged in a debate about Andrea Dworkin or Catharine MacKinnon, the nemeses of 'Third Wave' faux-feminists - and there has thusfar been not a single exception - has consistently attributed arguments to them that they had not made, and proven incapable of articulating exactly what either of them has said about pornography. These proponents of 'sex radicalism' that merely flip the patriarchal script, and who justify our own use of pornography or prostitution or both, and people who have never studied what radical feminists have written ingest these red herring and straw man critiques coming from the likes of Queen, Suzie Bright, Nina Hartley, and others.

"Much of feminist theory and activism against pornography and prostitution has been and continues to be developed by formerly prostituted women, who are not judging or otherwise maligning prostituted people, but rather exposing pimps and rapists, he sex industry as an institution of male violence and racial and economic privilege... One of the ways sex radical women misrepresent feminist work against pornography and prostitution is by claiming that feminists are in bed with conservative religious groups. This accusation is false..." (Stark, Stark & Whisnant, p. 278-291)

"Under sex radicalism, the pornography and prostitution industry disappears along with class-based political analysis of sexism, racism, heterosexism... leaving a few, select, privileged women to write about how they can 'choose' to oppress or be oppressed. Sex radicalism turns away from feminism, embracing a captor/captive mentality as revolutionary. No matter how many cute ways one spells 'boys', celebrating the objectification of women is dehumanizing and reactionary, whether it's men or women doing the objectifying." (Stark , Stark & Whisnant, p. 290)

This 'sex radicalism' beckons to Joy James' critique of postmodern 'radicalism' generally, what she called 'neo-radicalism,' that absolves itself of any responsibility to mount a politics of resistance to actual social systems where material power is exercised _ in gender, by men over women _ by embracing individual 'empowerment,' which is one of the touchstones of consumer ideology.

Annie Sprinkle can indulge her adolescent rebelliousness by pissing on camera, and this takes the place of solidarity with the thousands of other women who end up in prostitution through years of systematic abuse. Hartley would have us believe that the pornography-prostitution industry is simply a "vibrant, raucous and contentious creative culture." This is disingenuous in the extreme. As Grandma Isom would say, "Culture, my ass."

Capitalist patriarchy is a system. Neither Hartley nor any of her partisans want to talk about this (gasp!) 'Second Wave' feminist preoccupation. Capitalist patriarchy, as a world system, incorporates the colonization of women at its very base. The exploitation of millions of desperately poor women around the world by this industry is a direct expression of women's systemic subjugation. This makes it doubly offensive that Hartley characterizes this whitewashing of the industry's true nature as class struggle... porn is a good way for working class women to get out of dead-end jobs.

The process of cultural polarization, without a critique of capitalist patriarchy itself, accounts for the inability of many putative feminists - calling themselves 'sex positive' - to understand the critiques that radical and left feminists continue to make of pornography and prostitution. Even the use of a term like 'sex-positive' is demagogic, implying that those of us who expose the real nature of these misogynist-capitalist industries are somehow... sex-negative. Note how this construction decontextualizes sex from social systems altogether.

The conservative patriarchal reaction against women's sexual agency has actually contributed to liberal feminists' abstraction of pornography and prostitution into expressions of women's 'freedom to choose.' Of course, there is a good deal of political cross-dressing involved in propagating this argument, and Hartley's Free Speech Coalition is a perfect example. It is a front group for the porn industry - which is concerned with its profits - that finds itself at loggerheads with right-wing Christians like John Ashcroft on one front, and that paints left critics of porn - who point out its misogynist content - as partisans of the Christian Right.

This is, of course, a red herring of record proportions. I myself have stood alongside these same rock-ribbed Baptist zealots to oppose a state lottery. Their opposition to the lottery was based on their general opposition to gambling, while we opposed it because it was a highly regressive tax with a shitty record in 'supporting education.' The 'lottery for education' campaign, cooked up by the gaming industry, was pushed by its own 'freedom of choice' front groups.

"We're not for using the state to shake down people for immense profits, exploiting their desperation and false hope while encouraging a destructive compulsive disorder," the gaming industry suggested (through Astroturf groups like the Free Speech Coalition). "We're for harmless fun... and schools."

In the same way, the pornography industry - which thrives on misogynistic social constructions of sexuality (no, Nina, sexuality is not just a matter of ahistorical "taste and temperament" - says, "We are just protecting your right to free speech."

Meanwhile, the money is being made - lots of it - and a facade has to be constructed to conceal the reality of commodified sex, which for the enormous majority of its 'workers' is a relentless nightmare of violent exploitation.
It is not at all surprising that Hartley frames her argument as a commercial: "The marketplace of sexual entertainment contains products for almost every taste and orientation."

The ideology is libertarianism... the neoliberal lodestar... the fallacy that 'freedom' can only be defined as an attribute of individuals, and then only ahistorically. It is based on the abstraction that a poor Black woman in a hopeless ghetto or a 14-year-old peasant girl decanted into Bangkok by land enclosure have the same 'choices' as Suzie Bright or Carol Queen or Nina Hartley.

Reinforcing this American ideology, and by extension, the myopia about pornography and prostitution, is the position of the United States in the world system. Our collective job in the international division of labor is to consume _ to buy, buy, buy, and shop, shop, shop. This gives rise to an idea reflected from that practice, that life itself is a series of individual selections, of shopping choices, of lifestyles. This is consumerism. "The marketplace of sexual entertainment contains products for almost every taste and orientation."

Consumerism is itself an ideological product and an industry; it can be credibly defined as consumer-demand-production driven by the imperative to extend commodification into every available dimension of our lives.

High-speed, lightweight digital information/communication technology has also become a crucial technology for creating expanded consumer demand. Anyone really interested in ending the oppression of the world's women needs to examine demand creation as not only characteristic of late capitalism, but how it determines new forms of sexual commodification _ and what impact that is having on the millions of women around the world who will potentially end up listed at Pornliving at 'hot, cum-slurping Asians' or 'horny Russian sluts.'

The eroticized degradation of women - cum-hungry teen sluts - brought into the privacy of your own home.
Internet pornography is a mass marketed form of prostitution, now state-protected as 'speech,' and however it gets spun by Larry Flynt or Nina Hartley, it still constitutes a huge setback for women who were struggling in an earlier milieu for a toehold on social power. Here is the cul-de-sac of libertarianism and the international system on display together.

D. A. Clark, in her essay "Prostitution for anyone: Feminism, globalization, and the 'sex' industry" writes:
"The essential issues which traditionally inspired feminists to challenge and criticize the sex industry have not changed despite decades of effort. It has been remarkably difficult for feminists to make any progress on these issues. It is very difficult to get these issues taken seriously. Obviously one reason for that is that feminist activity has not changed the fundamentals of social power. Men still control decisive power blocs such as the armed forces, the higher levels of government, big business and media - and the 'sex industry' is a service industry for men." (Clarke, Stark & Whisnant, p. 152)

Decisively, (capitalist) men control the state. The liberal state. That very same one before which the masses genuflect while reverently whispering the worlds, 'our founding fathers,' and 'the Constitution.'"

But while no one reading this wants John Ashcroft, or his successor Alberto "de Sade" Gonzales, reading our emails, or spending public money to put linen drapes over the breasts of statues, or intruding into our bedrooms, we still need to be able to criticize the misogynist, slave-whipping, rapist founding fathers. And we need to talk about what the Constitution does and does not do. Because it sure gets hauled out into view every time privilege is endangered.

Let's not forget that the First Amendment also protects the rights of giant corporations and brokerage houses to control the entire electoral process by calling campaign spending 'protected speech.' In this way, the First Amendment privileges the prerogatives of the rich minority while it undermines the popular sovereignty of the entire nation. In the very same way, the First Amendment as it is deployed by the pornography industry to give the cover of 'rights' to an abstract individual to protect the prerogatives of a concrete and collectively exploitative, misogynistic, and frequently violent global enterprise.

That's how the liberal state works. It always abstracts an individual out of history in order to background the real history, and thereby protects power that existed socially, prior to the law, from any form of state intrusion. Those founding fathers were smart slaveholders and Indian-killers and wife-beaters, and they understood perfectly well what they were doing. They were inoculating existing systems of domination from forceful intervention, and making it look like they were doing the rest of us a favor. The very idea of a right of privacy was originally used to protect men's right to batter their wives.

This disappearance of history is how whites can sue African Americans for 'reverse racism,' how California can call an anti-immigrant law a 'civil rights initiative,' and Nina Hartley can get away with calling herself, along with Camille Paglia and Katie Rophie and all their ilk, 'feminist.' Subtract the history, and the whole issue becomes an academic abstraction, infinitely malleable and permeable to the most outrageous political counterfeiting.

In an interview, Carol Smith, a survivor of pornography, contrary to the abstract libertarian version of pornography, explained how she was sexually abused as a small child, chemically dependent and severely affectively disordered by age ten, and cajoled into pornography at 19 by leveraging her drug dependency. She reports that this is actually the most common trajectory for porn 'models' and prostitutes... there is no Pretty Woman. Exactly when was she was capable of 'consenting' by libertarian standards? Perhaps at the age of eight when she was first sexually abused? This is certainly a real question in the real world. Her story - which includes her escape from pornography - is not typical. It's not typical because many do not survive, and most remain addicted.

In her interview, she pointed out that her pornographic videotapes are still being marketed and displayed on the internet, even though she has tried to take legal action to stop them. This has had a tremendously damaging effect on her and her family, but the courts have sided with the pimp-pornographers, based on a contract she signed years ago _ a contract signed by an addicted, affectively disordered, young woman, financially dependent on her pimp-pornographer, in a society characterized by male supremacy. This is how consent is defined using the libertarian fallacy in the male capitalist state. Her images, being sexually degraded under the influence of drugs, which have been shown by others to her children, are a pimp's property.

Libertarianism has always been about one thing at its core - property.

Not only is pornography a service industry, as Clarke stated - a masturbation aid - it is, as radical feminists have long argued, a form of hate speech. Pornography is anti-woman propaganda. It is tantamount to placing pictures of hangman's nooses in workplaces with Black employees. State protection of pornography (including pornography that is actually digitally distributed prostitution) is state protection of misogynist hate speech.

Hartley can slander me just as vigorously as she slandered Dr. Sun, when she claimed that Sun was "defaming males" and that Sun was sharing positions with the evangelical prudes. Sun did not advocate that anyone "erase all forms of sexual choice." That was Hartley putting words in her mouth _ making a straw man of her in order to tear her up. Neither am I calling for erasing sexual choice. I haven't even called for legislation to stop pornography (mainly because I doubt it would work, given the depth of male misogyny inscribed on dominant constructions of sexuality). Hartley wants to make this debate about 'rights,' to decoy people off what we are saying about this industry _ one that she serves now as a lobbyist. I haven't called for stopping the Klan marches either (another libertarian fave _ I'll stick with rocks and bottles for the Klan.) The lion's share of this stuff called porn is hate speech, whether you want to make an abstract libertarian defense of it or not.

Imagine if you will, a billboard along an American highway with the caricatured image of a grinning, bug-eyed Black kid in tattered coveralls grinning over a slice of watermelon. Clearly, this would generate an outcry that would result in its removal almost immediately. Yet we can see billboards everywhere that show shaven infantilized (male sexuality is constructed in many ways as pedophilic), hyper-sexualized women, yet there is not only no outcry - there seems to be little discussion of what those images do to our daughters, sisters, partners, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and friends. That's how deep patriarchy is.

I would also note that it is also culturally 'okay' right now to display grotesque stereotypes of Arabs, since the United States government is involved in an active project of killing them by the hundreds of thousands.

Dr. Chyng Sun hit the nail on the head in her fifth paragraph:
"The pornographers want to derail any criticism of the often blatant misogyny of their product and are willing to wrap themselves in political principles to do that."

Stan Goff is the author of Hideous Dream: A Soldier's Memoir of the US Invasion of Haiti (Soft Skull Press, 2000) and Full Spectrum Disorder: The Military in the New American Century (Soft Skull Press, 2004). His next book, Sex & War, is about gender and the imperial military (due out at the end of 2005). He is retired from the United States Army, and a member of Veterans for Peace and Military Families Speak Out. He is also on the coordinating committee of the Bring Them Home Now campaign, http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/. His series on military issues, "Military Matters," appears at http://www.freedomroad.org/home.html.


http://www.xyonline.net/Goff_Porn_debate.shtml

azadnero
01-14-2008, 02:50 PM
it is too long to read for me :)

quirk
01-14-2008, 03:18 PM
it is too long to read for me :)

I suggest you should read it when you get a chance as it is an excellent article and really shows the dark side of porn.

azadnero
01-14-2008, 03:24 PM
I suggest you should read it when you get a chance as it is an excellent article and really shows the dark side of porn.

OK. I'll try to read.
In fact, many people know tthe dark side of porn. I guess... :)

quirk
01-14-2008, 04:15 PM
I thought many people did know but I posted this article on a different forum last week and the most common answer was that there is nothing wrong with porn and women choose to do it so its their own choice.

Enver
01-14-2008, 04:54 PM
I'd say the majority of women or men involved in porn probably made the initial decision to 'enter the industry'. Problems probably arise thereafter. It's like any system; once you involve yourself within it you automatically become vulnerable to institutionalised corruption and so forth. Two obvious examples are the judicial and psychiatric systems.

Dustin
01-14-2008, 05:38 PM
Well IMO the porn industry should be shut down.

quirk
01-14-2008, 05:46 PM
Well IMO the porn industry should be shut down.

I agree with you. I think alot more would be needed than mere prohabition as this would just send it underground but this would be a start as it would give the message that society does not tolerate it. Porn degredates women and potrays them in a very simplistic way. I think we should view this in the same light as we would view minstrel shows and the way they potray black people.

Enver
01-14-2008, 06:11 PM
What about gay porn which doesn't involve women?

Rehmat
01-15-2008, 03:30 AM
Porn industry is too profitable to be shut-down....plus it's one good way to destroy Christian religious values.

Nathan Abrams in "Jewish Quarterly (UK)" wrote in 2005:

A story little told is that of Jews in Hollywood's seedier cousin, the adult film industry. Perhaps we'd prefer that the 'triple exthnics' didn't exist, but there's no getting away from the fact that secular Jews played (and still continue to play) a disproportionate role throughout the adult film industry in America. Jewish involvement in pornography has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped transform a fringe subculture into what has become a primary constituent of Americana. These are the 'true blue' Jews. Smut peddlers

Jewish activity in the porn industry divides into two (sometimes overlapping) genres: pornographers and performers. Though Jews make up only two percent of the American population, they have been prominent in pornography. Many erotica dealers in the book trade between 1890 and 1940 were immigrant Jews of German origin.

In the postwar era, America's most notorious pornographer was Reuben Sturman, the 'Walt Disney of porn.' According to the US Department of Justice, throughout the 1970s Sturman controlled most of the pornography circulating in the country ... By the mid-80s he owned over 200 adult bookstores ... It was said that Sturman did not simply control the adult-entertainment industry, he was the industry.

quirk
01-15-2008, 11:27 AM
What about gay porn which doesn't involve women?

Excellent question and something I need to study more before I could give any kind of informed opinion. Most stuff written about it seems to be about straight porn.

azadnero
01-15-2008, 12:05 PM
women turn into meta by the porn movies
I mean they like goods and this happened due to capitalism
My english doesn't enough to explain that but i hope you understand me

quirk
01-15-2008, 12:24 PM
women turn into meta by the porn movies
I mean they like goods and this happened due to capitalism
My english doesn't enough to explain that but i hope you understand me

Yeah you have made it perfectly clear. Women are commodified by the porn industry seen as a product to satisfy men.

flax
03-29-2008, 04:13 PM
As allways ppl tend to see things in black and white.

We live in the grey ppl.

Porn isnt socialy accepted atm.
But it has been with human culture since we learned to scribble on cave walls.

Imho the problem isnt porn but the porn industry of today.
And as you correctly state a vast majority of porn today is objetifying.
To both genders mind you.

But i can take an example from myself.
I know what you might call sexualy deviant people mostly from the Fetish scene of wich im a member.
One couple are quite exhibitionist and has even made films as part of ther sexlife, not that i have seen them as it would feel rather weird i guess.
But can you condem them for making porn ?
I KNOW this isnt in anyway mainstream and only representing a VERY small percentage of the porn produced.

But if thats Ok then the problems is with the production and not with porn itself.

Just like shoes are nice things to walk around with but that doesnt in anyway exuse sweatshops in southeast asia run with child labour.

Do you see the point im trying to make ?

Flax

Enver
03-31-2008, 10:06 AM
As allways ppl tend to see things in black and white.

We live in the grey ppl.

Porn isnt socialy accepted atm.
But it has been with human culture since we learned to scribble on cave walls.

Imho the problem isnt porn but the porn industry of today.
And as you correctly state a vast majority of porn today is objetifying.
To both genders mind you.

But i can take an example from myself.
I know what you might call sexualy deviant people mostly from the Fetish scene of wich im a member.
One couple are quite exhibitionist and has even made films as part of ther sexlife, not that i have seen them as it would feel rather weird i guess.
But can you condem them for making porn ?
I KNOW this isnt in anyway mainstream and only representing a VERY small percentage of the porn produced.

But if thats Ok then the problems is with the production and not with porn itself.

Just like shoes are nice things to walk around with but that doesnt in anyway exuse sweatshops in southeast asia run with child labour.

Do you see the point im trying to make ?

Flax

An excellent point well made comrade.

flax
03-31-2008, 01:04 PM
And one other thing i guess some people even tho i dont would consider pics from our parties porn, what would that make me a pornographer or a victim?

ciaranxavier
03-31-2008, 02:40 PM
i agree with enver where its the womens choice whether or not to get into porn the most common comment ive heard from them (i watch a lot of documentaries) is "i love money and i love to fuck so why not do both at the same time". if there are crimes within the industry being committed towards these women then thats an issue for the gov. to take up. regulating the going ons within the industry.

ciaranxavier
03-31-2008, 02:40 PM
i agree with enver where its the womens choice whether or not to get into porn the most common comment ive heard from them (i watch a lot of documentaries) is "i love money and i love to fuck so why not do both at the same time". if there are crimes within the industry being committed towards these women then thats an issue for the gov. to take up. regulating the going ons within the industry.

Don melQuiades
04-01-2008, 05:43 AM
Well IMO the porn industry should be shut down.

Ironically, the internet has done more to destroy the porn industry than all legislation and every moralist group ever.

It's called free, cheap, porn.

Why pay for overproduced, glitzy films with ludicrous plotlines when you can watch some exhibitionist couple rail on www.youporn.com for free? And it's updated daily! What is a professional pornographer to do!? :D

Problems with the porn industry are just that: problems with the porn industry. Trying to equate problems with the porn industry with some supposed inherent problem with pornography is disingenuous.

Viv
04-01-2008, 06:11 AM
Ironically, the internet has done more to destroy the porn industry than all legislation and every moralist group ever.

It's called free, cheap, porn.

Why pay for overproduced, glitzy films with ludicrous plotlines when you can watch some exhibitionist couple rail on www.youporn.com for free? And it's updated daily! What is a professional pornographer to do!? :D

Problems with the porn industry are just that: problems with the porn industry. Trying to equate problems with the porn industry with some supposed inherent problem with pornography is disingenuous.

How do you know that stuff?:p

It is still, though, a very lucrative industry. Some "revealing" stats, I hope they are legible, the formatting looks a bit suspect here but there is a link:


Pornography Time Statistics
Every second - $3,075.64 is being spent on pornography
Every second - 28,258 Internet users are viewing pornography
Every second - 372 Internet users are typing adult search terms into search engines
Every 39 minutes: a new pornographic video is being created in the United States




2006 Worldwide Pornography Revenues
Country Revenue
(Billions) Per Capita Notes
China $27.40 $27.41 1
South Korea $25.73 $526.76
Japan $19.98 $156.75
US $13.33 $44.67
Australia $2.00 $98.70
UK $1.97 $31.84
Italy $1.40 $24.08
Canada $1.00 $30.21
Philippines $1.00 $11.18
Taiwan $1.00 $43.41 1
Germany $.64 $7.77 1
Finland $.60 $114.70 1
Czech Republic $.46 $44.94 1
Russia $.25 $1.76 1
Netherlands $.20 $12.13
Brazil $.10 $53.17 1
Other 212 Unavailable 2
$97.06 Billion
Notes 1=Incomplete, 2=Unavailable data

Click here to read Pornography Statistics, News and Facts Around the World



The pornography industry is larger than the revenues of the top technology companies combined: Microsoft, Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo!, Apple, Netflix and EarthLink





2006 and 2005 Pornography United States Industry Revenue Statistics

2006
(Billions) 2005
(Billions)
Video Sales & Rentals $3.62 $4.28
Internet $2.84 $2.50
Cable / PPV / In-Room / Mobile / Phone Sex $2.19 $1.34
Exotic Dance Clubs $2.00 $2.00
Novelties $1.73 $1.50
Magazines $.95 $1.00
$13.33 $12.62

US porn revenue exceeds the combined revenues of ABC, CBS, and NBC

2006 Search Engine Request Keyword Trends
Top Worldwide Search Requests Top US Cities Search Requests

1. South Africa 1. Elmhurst, IL
2. Ireland 2. Stockton, CA
3. New Zealand 3. Meriden, CT
4. United Kingdom 4. Chandler, AZ
5. Australia 5. Louisville, KY
6. Estonia 6. Irvine, CA
7. Norway 7. Kansas City, KS
8. Canada 8. Norfolk, VA
9. Croatia 9. Tampa, FL
10. Lithuania 10. Oklahoma City, OK

1. Bolivia 1. Elmhurst, IL
2. Chile 2. Meriden, CT
3. Romania 3. Oklahoma City, OK
4. Ecuador 4. Irvine, CA
5. Pakistan 5. Kansas City, KS
6. Peru 6. Tampa, FL
7. Mexico 7. Chandler, AZ
8. Slovenia 8. Norfolk, VA
9. Lithuania 9. Richardson, TX
10. Colombia 10. Las Vegas, NV

1. Pakistan 1. Elmhurst, IL
2. India 2. Meriden, CT
3. Egypt 3. Kansas City, KS
4. Turkey 4. Louisville, KY
5. Algeria 5. Southfield, MI
6. Morocco 6. Newark, NJ
7. Indonesia 7. Oklahoma City, OK
8. Vietnam 8. Norfolk, VA
9. Iran 9. Irvine, CA
10. Croatia 10. Chandler, AZ





Internet Pornography Statistics
Pornographic websites 4.2 million (12% of total websites)
Pornographic pages 420 million
Daily pornographic search engine requests 68 million (25% of total search engine requests)
Daily pornographic emails 2.5 billion (8% of total emails)
Internet users who view porn 42.7%
Received unwanted exposure to sexual material 34%
Average daily pornographic emails/user 4.5 per Internet user
Monthly Pornographic downloads (Peer-to-peer) 1.5 billion (35% of all downloads)
Daily Gnutella "child pornography" requests 116,000
Websites offering illegal child pornography 100,000
Sexual solicitations of youth made in chat rooms 89%
Youths who received sexual solicitation 1 in 7 (down from 2003 stat of 1 in 3)
Worldwide visitors to pornographic web sites 72 million visitors to pornography: Monthly
Internet Pornography Sales $4.9 billion





Children Internet Pornography Statistics
Average age of first Internet exposure to pornography 11 years old
Largest consumer of Internet pornography 35 - 49 age group
15-17 year olds having multiple hard-core exposures 80%
8-16 year olds having viewed porn online 90% (most while doing homework)
7-17 year olds who would freely give out home address 29%
7-17 year olds who would freely give out email address 14%
Children's character names linked to thousands of porn links 26 (Including Pokemon and Action Man)



Adult Internet Pornography Statistics
Men admitting to accessing pornography at work 20%
US adults who regularly visit Internet pornography websites 40 million
Promise Keeper men who viewed pornography in last week 53%
Christians who said pornography is a major problem in the home 47%
Adults admitting to Internet sexual addiction 10%
Breakdown of male/female visitors to pornography sites 72% male - 28% female




Women and Pornography
Women keeping their cyber activities secret 70%
Women struggling with pornography addiction 17%
Ratio of women to men favoring chat rooms 2X
Percentage of visitors to adult websites who are women 1 in 3 visitors
Women accessing adult websites each month 9.4 million
Women admitting to accessing pornography at work 13%
Women, far more than men, are likely to act out their behaviors in real life, such as having multiple partners, casual sex, or affairs.







Top Video Porn Producers Top US Erotica Important Cities
Country Major Producers Cities Importance
1. United States Vivid Entertainment, Hustler, Playboy, Wicked Pictures, Red Light District 1. Los Angeles Adult Production Companies
2. Brazil Frenesi Films, Pau Brazil, MarcoStudio 2. Las Vegas Adult Stars, Sin City Chamber of Commerce
3. The Netherlands Erostream, Midhold Media, Your Choice, Seventeen 3. New York Adult Entrepreneurs, Erotica
4. Spain Private Media Group, Woodman Entertainment 4. Chicago Playboy
5. Japan Soft on Demand, Moodyz 5. San Francisco Adult Websites, Adult Companies
6. Russia Beate Uhse, SP-Company, Dolphin Entertainment 6. Miami/South Florida Adult Websites, Penthouse
7. Germany Trimax, SG-Video, GGG, VideoRama, Zip Production 7. Seattle/Pacific Northwest Adult Websites
8. United Kingdom Hot Rod Productions, JoyBear Pictures, Blue Juice TV, Rude Britannia, Fresh SX 8. San Diego Adult Websites, Strip Clubs
9. Canada Wild Rose Productions, Eromodel Group, Dugmor 9. Phoenix /Tucson/ Scottsdale Club Jenna, Erotica
10. Australia Pistol Media 10. Hillsborough, NC. Adam & Eve
Other Notables 11. Boulder, CO. New Frontier
Sweden Maxs Video 12. Pittsburgh DVD Sales
Italy Adamo Entertainment 13. Portland Strip Club
Denmark Color Climax Corporation
France Euro Choc, Eil du Cochon, Ragtime, Video Marc Dorce, JTC Video, Colmax, Cadinot
Switzerland Gordi Films, Ikarus
Belgium GM Videos Top Pornography Banning Countries
Romania Floyd-Agency Saudia Arabia, Iran, Syria, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Kuwait, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Kenya, India, Cuba, China
Portugal Natural Video
Israel Sex Style
Serbia Hexor
Czech-Republic Lupus Pictures, Bel Ami



Country Porn Pages
United States 244,661,900
Germany 10,030,200
United Kingdom 8,506,800
Australia 5,655,800
Japan 2,700,800
The Netherlands 1,883,800
Russia 1,080,600
Poland 1,049,600
Spain 852,800








US Adult Video Sales and Rentals


Year $$$ (Billions) Units (Millions)
1992 $1.60 405
1993 $2.10 450
1994 $2.50 499
1995 $3.10 515
1996 $3.90 602
1997 $4.20 675
1998 $4.10 697
1999 $4.05 680
2000 $4.02 703
2001 $3.95 705
2002 $4.04 760
2003 $4.13 800
2004 $4.21 880
2005 $4.28 895
2006 $3.62 957














US Hardcore Pornography Titles Released
Year Titles
1988 1,300
1989 1,350
1990 1,340
1991 1,505
1992 2,200
1993 2,400
1994 3,200
1995 5,700
1996 8,000
1997 8,000
1998 9,200
1999 10,300
2000 11,500
2001 10,900
2002 11,700
2003 11,400
2004 12,000
2005 13,588






US Adult Internet User Demographics - Income
Income %
Under $15K 6.23%
$15K-$25K 6.59%
$25K-$35K 9.55%
$35K-$50K 16.59%
$50K-$75K 25.58%
$75K+ 35.30%






US Adult Internet User Demographics - Age
Age %
18-24 13.61%
25-34 19.90%
35-44 25.50%
45-54 20.67%
55+ 20.32%








Playboy Enterprises (NYSE:PLA)
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Founded: 1953
Employees: 725
CEO Christie Hefner
Properties: Playboy, Playmate, Spice
Content: 2,800 hours of programming
TV/Movie Networks 23-US, Europe, Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, Latin America, Brazil
Network Households 167.1 Million
Magazine Subscriptions: 4 Million monthly copies
2006 2005 2004 2003
Revenue $331,100,000 $338,100,000 $329,400,000 $315,800,000
Net Income $2,300,000 ($700,000) $10,000,000 ($7,600,000)



New Frontier Media (NASDAQ:NOOF)
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Employees 143
CEO Michael Weiner
Properties: Ten, Pleasure, MRG Entertainment, Ten.com, iGallery
Content: 350 hours of programming
TV/Movie Networks: 8
Network Households 93,000,000 (2006) 80,133,000 (2005) 62,970,000 (2004)
2006 2005 2004 2003
Revenue $46,851,000 $46,277,000 $42,878,000 $36,747,000
Net Income $11,283,000 $11,122,000 $10,913,000 ($11,895,000)


Private Media Group (NASDAQ:PRVT)
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Founded: 1965
Employees 135
CEO Berth Milton
Properties: Private.com, PrivateSpeed.com, PRVT.com, PrivateHome.com
Content: 2 Million photos, 900 Titles
TV/Movie Networks: 8
Network Households 28 Million
Distribution: 462 Publications - 2 Million Magazines in 40 countries - 2 Million DVD's/VHS
60 Million Internet Page Views Per Month
2006 (9 Months) 2005 2004 2003
Revenue $27,730,000 $32,673,000 $35,612,000 $38,491,000
Net Income $1,259,000 $59,000 ($837,000) ($570,000)


Penthouse Media Group
Founded: 1965
CEO Marc H. Bell
Properties: Penthouse, PenthouseStore, SexyJamie, PenthouseCelebs, Variations.com
Distribution: 2,000,000 Magazine subscriptions in 45 Countries - 12 International Editions: US, Australia, Dutch, German, Greek, Hungary, New Zealand, Russian, Spanish, Thai, Ukrainian, UK
30 Million Internet Page Views Per Month, 2.5 Million Unique Visitors/Month

Dennis Publishing
Location: London, UK
Employees 135
CEO James Tye
Properties: Maxim, Stuff, Inside Edge, Blender
Distribution: 2.5 Million Magazines - UK and 30 other countries
2005 Revenue $106,100,000
Net Income ($300,000)


Vivid Entertainment
Location: Los Angeles, California
Founded: 1984
Co-CEOs: Steve Hirsch, David James, Bill Asher
Industry: One of the Top Adult Film Producers
2005 Revenue $100,000,000


Larry Flynt Productions
Location: Beverly Hills, California
Founded: 1976
CEO Larry Flynt
Properties Hustler, Hustler.com
Distribution: 500,000 Magazines


Beate Uhse (Frankfurt Stock Exchange)
Location: Germany and 13 other countries
Founded: 1946
Employees: 1,500
CEO Otto Christian Lindemann
Properties: beate-uhse.com, sex.de, Sex and Erotica Products
Distribution Exports to 60 Countries - 5 million items sent each year from 3 million orders
2006 (9 Months) 2005 2004 2003
Revenue $271,000,000 $369,000,000 $354,000,000 $344,000,000
Net Income $32,000,000 $41,400,000 $34,700,000 $40,800,000
http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html

Debater69
04-02-2008, 09:25 PM
Anyone who doesn't believe me can bring up Google and have a look.

A google search for "porn" brought up "about 196,000,000" results. Who can honestly be expected to check nearly 2 hundred million results?

[pornography] is, as radical feminists have long argued, a form of hate speech. Pornography is anti-woman propaganda. It is tantamount to placing pictures of hangman's nooses in workplaces with Black employees. State protection of pornography (including pornography that is actually digitally distributed prostitution) is state protection of misogynist hate speech.

What about porn for straight women? What about gay porn? They don't show women. What about porn for lesbians? That depicts women, but I very much doubt anyone running such a porn site would alienate its customers with "misogynist hate speech.".

donquixote99
05-03-2008, 05:23 PM
Ironically, the internet has done more to destroy the porn industry than all legislation and every moralist group ever.

It's called free, cheap, porn.

Why pay for overproduced, glitzy films with ludicrous plotlines when you can watch some exhibitionist couple rail on www.youporn.com (http://www.youporn.com) for free? And it's updated daily! What is a professional pornographer to do!? :D

Problems with the porn industry are just that: problems with the porn industry. Trying to equate problems with the porn industry with some supposed inherent problem with pornography is disingenuous.

This, and the Sweedish anti-pimping experience point the way. We should allow free porn, but criminalize the act of paying money for it. They will alllow everyone to have all the sexy fun they want, while deflating an industry the grossly mistreats women.

ciaranxavier
05-04-2008, 03:02 AM
This, and the Sweedish anti-pimping experience point the way. We should allow free porn, but criminalize the act of paying money for it. They will alllow everyone to have all the sexy fun they want, while deflating an industry the grossly mistreats women.

ya make porn free and pay the woman nothing thatll solve their mistreatment.

Phædrus
05-04-2008, 03:04 AM
ya make porn free and pay the woman nothing thatll solve their mistreatment.

If no one's getting paid, there'll be no profit in taking advantage of women and ninety percent of mistreatment of women will just go away.

Viv
05-04-2008, 08:07 AM
ya make porn free and pay the woman nothing thatll solve their mistreatment.

:)

There's no payment, there's no porn.

ciaranxavier
05-04-2008, 08:40 PM
If no one's getting paid, there'll be no profit in taking advantage of women and ninety percent of mistreatment of women will just go away.

but the reason theyre doing it is to be paid. they dont make porn for free because the people want to get paid.

Phædrus
05-04-2008, 08:48 PM
but the reason theyre doing it is to be paid. they dont make porn for free because the people want to get paid.

The reason women go into porn and prostitution is because it pays better than McDonalds or Walmart, and they consider the degradation to be an acceptable price. If you want to end degradation, make porn pay less than other jobs. Then they'll get other jobs. Short term they'll be getting payed less, but they'll be better off in the long run.

ciaranxavier
05-04-2008, 08:57 PM
The reason women go into porn and prostitution is because it pays better than McDonalds or Walmart, and they consider the degradation to be an acceptable price. If you want to end degradation, make porn pay less than other jobs. Then they'll get other jobs. Short term they'll be getting payed less, but they'll be better off in the long run.

you ever stop to think that they might enjoy doing it? id say a lot of them would be offended if you told them to go work at mcdonalds or walmart when they think they have a perfectly fine job and its fun for them. its not like women are being forced to do it and if the industries taking advantage of women then thats something the gov. either has to regulate or watch more closely.

Gareth
05-04-2008, 09:02 PM
:)

There's no payment, there's no porn.

What else are these women going to do then, in the grander scheme of things. Are there enough jobs to take these women in or would they have to do worse things such as prostituting themselves.

You all know that I am very much anti-porn, but it's a necessary question to be raised.

quirk
05-04-2008, 09:05 PM
you ever stop to think that they might enjoy doing it? id say a lot of them would be offended if you told them to go work at mcdonalds or walmart when they think they have a perfectly fine job and its fun for them. its not like women are being forced to do it and if the industries taking advantage of women then thats something the gov. either has to regulate or watch more closely.

The problem with this is that might be the case for a few at the top of the porn industry but is not reflective of the majority who are young working class girls and the porn which they get involved in is in the main degrading, in many cases is racist and could in no way be described as fun in my opinion.

Viv
05-04-2008, 09:47 PM
you ever stop to think that they might enjoy doing it? id say a lot of them would be offended if you told them to go work at mcdonalds or walmart when they think they have a perfectly fine job and its fun for them. its not like women are being forced to do it and if the industries taking advantage of women then thats something the gov. either has to regulate or watch more closely.

In an interview, Carol Smith, a survivor of pornography, contrary to the abstract libertarian version of pornography, explained how she was sexually abused as a small child, chemically dependent and severely affectively disordered by age ten, and cajoled into pornography at 19 by leveraging her drug dependency. She reports that this is actually the most common trajectory for porn 'models' and prostitutes...

They don't enjoy it, Ciaran.

Gareth
05-04-2008, 09:56 PM
They don't enjoy it, Ciaran.

All don't? I'm not so sure about that myself.

Viv
05-04-2008, 10:07 PM
Men generally do not accept that. If they do, they have to accept that the use of porn perpetuates abuse of women. Men don't want to feel responsible for that, they prefer to stick by the "women love it" p.o.v.

The sexual exploitation of women and children by local and global sex industries violates the human rights of all women and children whose bodies are reduced to sexual commodities in this brutal and dehumanizing marketplace. While experienced as pleasure by the prostitution consumers and as lucrative sources of income by sex industry entrepreneurs, prostitution, sex trafficking, and related practices are, in fact, forms of sexual violence that leave women and children physically and psychologically devastated.


Sexually exploited women and children are the sex industry's primary casualties but not its only victims. Commercial sexual exploitation diminishes the lives of all women and girls by inculcating in men and boys profoundly misogynistic beliefs and attitudes. By teaching males that female bodies are sexual merchandise to be traded, used, and discarded, prostitution bolsters gender inequality in all areas of society. Its effects are most readily apparent, however, in acts of sexual violence against women, in the sexual harassment of women in the workplace, and in violence against women by their intimate partners.


The global sex industry merchandises women and children in a variety of ways--through prostitution, sex trafficking, sex tourism, the mail-order bride trade, and pornography. These practices of sexual exploitation are interconnected and inextricable from each other, and most sexually exploited women and children are subjected to multiple forms of sexual exploitation. For example, women and children are often recruited or sold into domestic prostitution and then trafficked into brothels overseas. While being prostituted, women and children are often pressured or coerced into posing for pornography, which increasingly is trafficked internationally. Exploitation in "sexual entertainment" (strip clubs, topless bars, etc.) often precedes or accompanies exploitation in sex trafficking or prostitution. Customers of sexually exploited women and children often buy access to them in a variety of sexually exploitative contexts, while pimps, procurers, and traffickers profit from the different practices of sexual exploitation interchangeably. Indeed, one of the motivating forces for trafficking is the demand of prostitution customers for more "exotic" and compliant sexual playthings. It is impossible, as the drafters of the 1949 Convention understood, to separate sex trafficking from the exploitation of the prostitution of others.
- Presentation to UN Special Seminar on Trafficking, Prostitution and the Global Sex Industry - Postion Paper for CATW: PART ONE
Author(s): Dorchen Leidholdt, Co-Executive Director, Coalition Against Trafficking in Women
Presentation to the Special Seminar on Trafficking, Prostitution and the Global Sex Industry, of the UN Working Group on Contemporary Forms of Slavery.

donquixote99
05-04-2008, 10:08 PM
All don't? I'm not so sure about that myself.

I'm sure some get a kick out of exhibitionism. I'm fine with them doing it for free and posting it on www.youporn.com (http://www.youporn.com/) or whatever. Again, I'm not out to outlaw porn, mainly becuase it's tricky and a big bother to to that, and I see no driving necessity.

What does strike me as a moral imperative is stopping the coercive sexual exploitation of women (and men and children) for profit. The claim that some are not exploited is sort of beside the point. I think criminalizing paying for porn will, by making it much harder to make money by exploiting people this way, do more than any other policy option available to decrease this social ill.

Gareth
05-04-2008, 10:10 PM
I'm not fine with porn at all. It causes a lot of relationship problems and leads those who view it into addiction.

Phædrus
05-04-2008, 10:11 PM
If they enjoy it they can do it for free.

Phædrus
05-04-2008, 10:11 PM
I'm not fine with porn at all. It causes a lot of relationship problems and leads those who view it into addiction.

So is that the fault of the pornographers or the people who consume it?

Gareth
05-04-2008, 10:17 PM
It's the fault of the people who demand it. However I do not think that the porn industry will ever collapse due to the seeking of men (and women) for lust.

quirk
05-04-2008, 10:40 PM
All don't? I'm not so sure about that myself.

The vast majority don't but rather do it out of reasons such as economic necessity. The same can be said for prostitutes.

It's the fault of the people who demand it. However I do not think that the porn industry will ever collapse due to the seeking of men (and women) for lust.

I don't agree. Peoples desires to view such pornography is a result of wider problems in society and the objectification of women as sex objects.

Don melQuiades
05-05-2008, 12:04 AM
Gay porn?

donquixote99
05-05-2008, 05:02 AM
what!?

http://www.networkingtheinternet.com/images/fire-next-time.jpg

Gareth
05-05-2008, 08:19 AM
Men generally do not accept that. If they do, they have to accept that the use of porn perpetuates abuse of women. Men don't want to feel responsible for that, they prefer to stick by the "women love it" p.o.v.


Slight problem there though, this isn't a man only thing.

Over 30% of those who view porn are women. Therefore I don't think this can be used as a feminists way to say "ah another problem men are causing" as that is totally inaccurate.

miriya
05-05-2008, 04:40 PM
then the question why are women viewing porn

Gareth
05-05-2008, 06:00 PM
then the question why are women viewing porn

Surely that's what the women should explain to us.

1) They could be lusting after men
2) They could be lusting after other women.

However this doesn't make it right for either men or women to exploit eachother.

miriya
05-05-2008, 06:10 PM
or they are see what the fuck it is about ir seeeing it with they boyfriend

ciaranxavier
05-05-2008, 06:20 PM
Slight problem there though, this isn't a man only thing.

Over 30% of those who view porn are women. Therefore I don't think this can be used as a feminists way to say "ah another problem men are causing" as that is totally inaccurate.

plus theres just as much gay porn as there is straight porn, is it just the women getting abused?

ciaranxavier
05-05-2008, 06:21 PM
or they are see what the fuck it is about ir seeeing it with they boyfriend

in english please?:confused:

miriya
05-05-2008, 06:54 PM
they want to see what porn s about

or they are seeing it with there boyfriends

Gareth
05-05-2008, 07:22 PM
plus theres just as much gay porn as there is straight porn, is it just the women getting abused?

There is no reason why that isn't logically sound.

miriya: And you have asked all of these women if they even have boyfriends?

miriya
05-05-2008, 08:19 PM
no, but I know first time I saw porn was with a boyfriend

ciaranxavier
05-05-2008, 08:38 PM
they want to see what porn s about

or they are seeing it with there boyfriends

those are most ways people see it because theyre curious or theyre introduced to it by somebody. is there something wrong with that?

ciaranxavier
05-05-2008, 08:39 PM
There is no reason why that isn't logically sound.

miriya: And you have asked all of these women if they even have boyfriends?

i didnt mean abused i meant forced. everyone seems to be implying theyre forced to do so and i just dont see that as being the case.

donquixote99
05-05-2008, 11:48 PM
Ciaran, investigations cited here show that large numbers are abused and coerced. If you 'don't see' that this is the case, it's because you are not looking.

I see no reason to make any distinctions regarding the sex, or sexual orientation, of either the actors/models, or the users. What's the diff? The industry's record is dismal in all respects. No paying for porn. This goes with my earlier anti-pimping/anti-trafficking recommendation: no paying for sex. Knock out the professional sex industry. It is corrupt and coercive, and this is the method that works to vastly reduce the crimes committed. The Swedish experience shows this works in the case of prostitution, and i think it would work well for porn as well.

Don't worry, ciaran, you'll still have porn, people will do it for fun, and for 'art;' and you'll know that the participants probably are the happy volunteers you seem to think they mostly are now.

ciaranxavier
05-06-2008, 10:01 AM
Ciaran, investigations cited here show that large numbers are abused and coerced. If you 'don't see' that this is the case, it's because you are not looking.

I see no reason to make any distinctions regarding the sex, or sexual orientation, of either the actors/models, or the users. What's the diff? The industry's record is dismal in all respects. No paying for porn. This goes with my earlier anti-pimping/anti-trafficking recommendation: no paying for sex. Knock out the professional sex industry. It is corrupt and coercive, and this is the method that works to vastly reduce the crimes committed. The Swedish experience shows this works in the case of prostitution, and i think it would work well for porn as well.

Don't worry, ciaran, you'll still have porn, people will do it for fun, and for 'art;' and you'll know that the participants probably are the happy volunteers you seem to think they mostly are now.

Ciaran, investigations cited here show that large numbers are abused and coerced. If you 'don't see' that this is the case, it's because you are not looking.

who are you to tell someone else what's degrading to them???. does it make you feel superior??

Pornography is not always bad... Just misunderstood
While not exactly a taboo subject among teenagers, pornography and its place in mainstream culture is undoubtedly the most awkward conversation piece when teenagers and adults interact.

Parents and teachers tend to frown upon pornography, which is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as "sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal."

But why does society attach such a strong stigma to what can be viewed as a means of expression? It is a well-known but understated fact that most people have seen pornography by the time they enter high school. That having been said, how has a stigma of pornography helped shield it from innocent eyes? Or is it even necessary to block it out? After all, sex is happening right now in many shapes, ways and forms.

Theory number one: your grandmother's indecency argument. This classic argument used timelessly by parents explains that pornography is "indecent;" it represents sex as excessive and gratuitous and that it is unfit for young eyes. This argument invokes moral standards to support itself; however, there is little support and reasoning behind this theory except for "porn is bad."

Here is where the argument really crumbles. When asked if they have viewed pornography, most parents will say yes (if not, they are against the norm), and this leaves them with two possibilities. If they continue to criticize pornography, they are hypocrites in the eyes of their children. If they recant their beliefs, then they agree that porn usually does not mess people up.

Male students at Palo Alto High School share these sentiments. In fact, some students will even argue that pornography crosses the threshold from benign to beneficial.

"I believe it's a harmless thing and that it's kind of educational," junior Ran Schwartz said. "It's good entertainment and people can learn from watching it."

Schwartz's view coincides with the greater liberal view of pornography as a positive outlet for natural sexual desires of men in particular. In his book Mediated Sex, Brian McNair presents the liberal ideas of Maurice Peckham on usage of pornography:

"Pornography, as mediated sexuality, functions mainly as a means of teaching sex roles which are central to human sexual behavior in advanced societies."

In this light, porn hardly seems dangerous. It realistically depicts a natural human phenomenon, and for those who are unfamiliar with the complexities of sex nowadays, porn can teach them the proper techniques!

But, high school girls tend to view pornography's usage is "absolutely disgusting, one of the worst mental images ever," an anonymous student said.

The fact that something is disgusting does not mean that it is morally reprehensible. What can the authority figures use in their campaign against porn? Enter: the feminist theories, the savior of all those who are opposed to sexually explicit material.This branch of psychology offers complex analysis of the objectification of women through pornography. As McNair notes in Mediated Sex:

"Pornography represents sex, and seeks to arouse, but it does so in the social context of patriarchy. The objectification and fetishization of women present in much of pornography is a reflection of male dominance, endorsing and reinforcing it ... The images, and their arousals, are produced by and through the physical abuse and exploitation of the idea that women whose bodies they depict."

Ah, so now there is more ammo for the conservatives. But this time the reasoning is much more sound and persuasive. Porn considers women the inferior sex and perpetuates that women are the sex slaves to men.

Another spin by these radicals is that pornography destroys the "sanctity of sex."

"Pornography's greatest harm is caused by its ability — and its intention — to attack the very dignity and sacredness of sex itself, reducing human sexual behavior to the level of its animal components," conservative Father Bruce Ritter said in 1986.

Now here's a real concern for people — pornography degrades the worth of sex! How could we possibly allow for something so beautiful, so passionate, so satisfying to be undermined by a malicious representation through a biased medium?

Despite the compelling scientific evidence regarding pornography, Paly still remains divided in its opinion on the topic.

As a general rule, girls tend to view pornography with a sense of disgust while the male population speaks with acceptance and mild apathy. To the feminist theories, Schwartz offers an interesting response.

"Porn may objectify women, but this is because of the male mindset," Schwartz said. "Porn doesn't naturally oppress women, but it is a reflection of what is in the male mindset, and the male mind causes any objectification."

Perhaps the best way to resolve this conflict is with a middle-of-the-road approach. We could realize that pornography has a practical use and be wary of any signs of oppression towards women. Hopefully, this unique pastime can be preserved for those who need it, but not mainstreamed to the point where it evokes a change in mentality.


I see no reason to make any distinctions regarding the sex, or sexual orientation, of either the actors/models, or the users. What's the diff?

i wasnt making a distinction everyone was talking about women and saying they were being forced into doing it and that theyre being abused well in the trade. i was just wondering why everyone forgot about men.

no paying for sex.

not everyone can just go get laid, some people have to and want to pay for it.

Knock out the professional sex industry. It is corrupt and coercive, and this is the method that works to vastly reduce the crimes committed.

i think its better to work with the industry to improve its dismal record then to make a feeble attempt to abolish it.

The Swedish experience shows this works in the case of prostitution, and i think it would work well for porn as well.

this isnt proven to work, where i am theyve tried to stop prostitution and all its done is driven it onto the streets and into the neighborhoods. where if they legalised it and created a red light district it would be concentrated in one area and could be more easily regulated ensuring less transmission of STD's.


Don't worry, ciaran, you'll still have porn, people will do it for fun, and for 'art;' and you'll know that the participants probably are the happy volunteers you seem to think they mostly are now

im not too worried about it, and those volunteers probably wont be so ready to put their face on t.v for pornography if their not getting paid. they do movies because they get paid AND like to fuck not because they just like to fuck.

donquixote99
05-06-2008, 11:41 AM
Ciaran, Your response is not on point. I did not diss porn. My concern is with the exploitation of workers in the industry, often criminal.

You don't know the facts about the Swedish case. I suggest you inform yourself.

Gratuitious insult noted.

greektzon
05-06-2008, 12:59 PM
searche the connection jews and internet -pornography.
if you dont find anything ,i will give you the link and informations.

quirk
05-06-2008, 04:21 PM
searche the connection jews and internet -pornography.
if you dont find anything ,i will give you the link and informations.

Ok give it.

greektzon
05-06-2008, 04:33 PM
there isnt mine words.
But from ...jew.

http://www.jewishquarterly.org/article.asp?articleid=38

quirk
05-06-2008, 04:44 PM
there isnt mine words.
But from ...jew.

http://www.jewishquarterly.org/article.asp?articleid=38

So there is Jews in the porn industry. Whats your point? Is there no Christians, atheists or people of other faiths and races?

donquixote99
05-07-2008, 01:11 AM
Come now. We know what his point is.

ciaranxavier
05-07-2008, 09:54 AM
Ciaran, Your response is not on point. I did not diss porn. My concern is with the exploitation of workers in the industry, often criminal.

You don't know the facts about the Swedish case. I suggest you inform yourself.

Gratuitious insult noted.

Ciaran, Your response is not on point. I did not diss porn. My concern is with the exploitation of workers in the industry, often criminal.

which ive never disagreed with all ive said is its a job for the gov. to intervene and properly regulate the business. as it stands right now its a taboo subject which politicians would rather not deal with.

You don't know the facts about the Swedish case. I suggest you inform yourself.

well why dont you inform me.

Gratuitious insult noted.

:confused::confused:

donquixote99
05-11-2008, 12:20 AM
http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

Gareth
05-11-2008, 07:31 AM
"In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them."

My word what rubbish. This like porn is surely not a male only problem.

and the public is educated in order to counteract the historical male bias that has long stultified thinking on prostitution.

Contradiction much. They haven't even counteracted it in this article!

donquixote99
05-11-2008, 10:58 AM
They take the points a little too far, of course, but try to make allowances for their feminist stance, and read for comprehension of the actions that have been taken in Sweden, and the results.

And by the way, I think it is ramifications of aggressive male sexuality (which does differ from the female for evolutionary reasons) that mainly drive the sex trade, both heterosexual and homosexual.