Did Jesus deny being God?

[ali]

Did Jesus make statements reguarding his status, the words, the will and the power he used ? Let us find out.

WORDS

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

WILL

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

POWER

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

KNOWLEDGE

Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, but My Father only.

Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who
sent me;

STATUS

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone.

8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

Some Christians, (not all) claim that Jesus implied that he was God. From the above verses, we see that Jesus denied being God. It now leaves the Christians who believe Jesus is God to provide just one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God". There is no such verse, so we see from the many quotes above, that the House did not belong to Jesus, it belonged to the ONE WHO SENT him.


Is Jesus the Unique son of God ?

The Bible confirms that Jesus is not the unique son of God.

"And thou [Moses] shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born." (Exodus 4:22),

"He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),

"I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn"(Jeremiah 31:9), 'long before Jesus was born', "I will declare the decree:the Lord hath said unto me [David], Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7),

and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"(Luke3: 38).

Do the few I mentioned have this "unique begotten son relationship"? Is Jesus still unique because he had no father?
Well brothers and sisters, Adam and Eve had no father or mother. Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9. It is Blasphemy to say God begotten (sired) Jesus.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ." (Luke 4:41)

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing." (Luke 9:20 and 21).

http://submission.org/jesus-god.html

[CoolockRepublican]

To some Muslims, the term “Son of God” brings up images of a sort of divine being with a goddess wife who together have somehow produced a child. When Christians use the term in reference to Jesus, they immediately assume that the Christians are committing blasphemy by stating that God has participated in some sort of sexual union with another god – a goddess wife.

They say: "the most gracious has betaken a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it in the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they attributed a son to the Most Gracious, for it is not consonant with the majesty of the Most Gracious that he should beget a son. (The Qur'an, 5:88-92).

This is naturally a ridiculous scenario and is a false assumption. No where in the Bible does it say that God had relations with anyone to produce a literal son, nor has Christianity taught that God produced a son through any physical act whatsoever. Such a thing is heretical. Nevertheless, the Bible in numerous places calls Jesus the Son of God. But, it does not mean that Jesus is the literal offspring of God.
The Muslims need to as ask what does that term mean, in its historic and biblical context. Instead of imposing upon the biblical term a meaning that is foreign to it, the Muslim should learn what the Bible means by the term and think of it in the context as revealed in the Scriptures where it is used. To not do that would be the same as me taking a term out of the Qur'an, remove it from its Qur'anic context, and applying another meaning to it and then saying what the Qur'an teaches is false. The term “Son of God” is used in different senses in the Bible. But, never does it mean that God has a wife and produces offspring.

Old Testament usage of the term Son of God

The term “son of God” is used in two main ways in the Old Testament. Neither way denotes any physical relation to God. Rather, the references deal with those who are under divine obedience to the call of God. It is used of Israel as a nation through the Exodus. Hosea 11:1 says, “When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.”1 It is also used in reference to angels. Job 1:6 says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.” Also, in Job 38:7 it says, "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" These are in reference to angels who are created beings and in no way implies literal dependency from God.

New Testament usage of the term Son of God

The Term "Son of God" occurs 47 times in the King James New Testament. In reference to Jesus, it is a title as the heavenly, eternal Son who is equal to God the Father (John 5:18-24). It is Jesus who fully reveals the Father (Matt. 11:27). He is the exact representation of the Father (Heb. 1:1-3), He possesses all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18), and Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5).
The Muslim is taught from the Qur'an and therefore cannot accept the fact that Jesus is divine. To the Muslim, that is shirk, blasphemy of the worst kind. But believing it doesn't make it so. To the Christian, and according to the Bible, Jesus is the one who alone saves us from our sins. We cannot earn our way to heaven, perform enough good works to please God, or ever be "sincere enough" in repentance to somehow obtain forgiveness from God. Instead, Christianity is a faith of God's great love and sacrifice for His creation. Jesus, the Son of God, is the divine one who fulfilled prophecies, walked on water, healed the sick, and rose from the dead. Only the Son of God can do these things.

http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_Jesus_son.htm

[ali]

Can you address the points that I made in my original post?

[Gareth]

ali, this is good work, right up until you flick through to the start of John. The Word was God, and the Word was with God, and the Word was made flesh!

[ali]

But you are assuming John was correct. Jesus himself never once said this.

[Gareth]

Ali: You start trying to disprove the Holy Trinity with the Bible. Which must mean that you are trying to convince us that Christ is not part of God Himself. If you say the Bible is untrue, then your argument is untrue because you tried to use the Bible in the first place. You even quote John in your post. If John is wrong, so are the quotes you used from him.

Unlike you, I see the Bible to be revealed truth. This is why you will never convince Christians that it is false. Similar questions could be raised in relation to Muhammads stance as prophet and the Qur'aan.

As for Jesus not being the unique Son of God, you also fail to notice the symbolic fathering of God of Israel, compared to the literal fathering of God in relation to Jesus. Jesus' father was God, unless you are suggesting His father was Joseph and Mary was not a virgin. Adam is also referred to as a Son of God, however there is a difference between created and begotten. Adam was created by God from the very dust of the ground, whereas Jesus was begotten of Mary and God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

John was a chosen Apostle of Christ, I have no reason to doubt him.

[CoolockRepublican]

mohammed was a false prophet and actualy failed the test of a true prophet,he never made any prophecys that came true,also the quran was not written untill over 100 years after mohammed died so how do we know if it is even reliable,in fact the hadith tells the story of how there where many different versions of the quran after mohammeds death so the caliph gathered what he thought to be correct and put it together,and burned the rest,proof for this can be found in the Al Aqsa mosque,there are quotations on the inside of al aqsas walls claiming to be from the quran but the verses can not be found in the quran that exists today,mohammed was only a warlord who manipulated people for personal gain,he invented revelations any time he needed justification for his evil deeds.

[Viv]

The OP asks "Did Jesus deny being God". The issue does not relate to what he said, but to the poster's lack of understanding of that aspect of faith IMO.

Ali, Jesus and God are one and the same.

It is a mystery of faith. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit are all a part of the one being. Together they are, I think, called the Holy Trinity...three parts of the same whole.

So the answer according to what that faith preaches is no IMO.

[quirk]

The OP asks "Did Jesus deny being God". The issue does not relate to what he said, but to the poster's lack of understanding of that aspect of faith IMO.

Ali, Jesus and God are one and the same.

It is a mystery of faith. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit are all a part of the one being. Together they are, I think, called the Holy Trinity...three parts of the same whole.

So the answer according to what that faith preaches is no IMO.

But I think ali's point is that Jesus himself did deny this and therefore the trinity doctrine (which was thought up hundred of years later) is wrong.

[Viv]

But I think ali's point is that Jesus himself did deny this and therefore the trinity doctrine (which was thought up hundred of years later) is wrong.

Thanks for clarifying quirk.

[Gareth]

But I think ali's point is that Jesus himself did deny this and therefore the trinity doctrine (which was thought up hundred of years later) is wrong.

The Gospels scream of Trinity, there are a lot of passages which suggest Trinitarian views of God.

[quirk]

Can you give me a link to any?

[Gareth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#Scriptural_texts_cited_as_implying_support

[quirk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#Scriptural_texts_cited_as_implying_support

Cheers

[SVTman]

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58

I would say that is a pretty bold statement for someone you say wasn't God

[BFSmith@764]

Did Jesus make statements reguarding his status, the words, the will and the power he used ? Let us find out.

WORDS

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

WILL

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

POWER

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

KNOWLEDGE

Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, but My Father only.

Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who
sent me;

STATUS

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone.

8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

Some Christians, (not all) claim that Jesus implied that he was God. From the above verses, we see that Jesus denied being God. It now leaves the Christians who believe Jesus is God to provide just one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God". There is no such verse, so we see from the many quotes above, that the House did not belong to Jesus, it belonged to the ONE WHO SENT him.


Is Jesus the Unique son of God ?

The Bible confirms that Jesus is not the unique son of God.

"And thou [Moses] shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born." (Exodus 4:22),

"He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),

"I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn"(Jeremiah 31:9), 'long before Jesus was born', "I will declare the decree:the Lord hath said unto me [David], Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7),

and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"(Luke3: 38).

Do the few I mentioned have this "unique begotten son relationship"? Is Jesus still unique because he had no father?
Well brothers and sisters, Adam and Eve had no father or mother. Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9. It is Blasphemy to say God begotten (sired) Jesus.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ." (Luke 4:41)

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing." (Luke 9:20 and 21).

http://submission.org/jesus-god.html



Jesus said He was God, but not in a way that most would expect.

John 10:30 (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.

He did not simply say that He and His Father are in agreement; He meant that He and His Father are One, not two that happens to agree with each other, but one being.

He also said that God was His Father

Matthew 7:21 (ASV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus did not correct Thomas when he called Him God

John 20:28-29 (ASV)
28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You see Jesus does not have to bluntly say I am God; He let those who knew Him best, His disciples who were with Him for three and a half years tell us who He is. No one else is more qualified to tell us about Jesus than they.

[ciaranxavier]

mohammed was a false prophet and actualy failed the test of a true prophet,he never made any prophecys that came true,also the quran was not written untill over 100 years after mohammed died so how do we know if it is even reliable,in fact the hadith tells the story of how there where many different versions of the quran after mohammeds death so the caliph gathered what he thought to be correct and put it together,and burned the rest,proof for this can be found in the Al Aqsa mosque,there are quotations on the inside of al aqsas walls claiming to be from the quran but the verses can not be found in the quran that exists today,mohammed was only a warlord who manipulated people for personal gain,he invented revelations any time he needed justification for his evil deeds.

the quran was not written untill over 100 years after mohammed died so how do we know if it is even reliable

you make this claim but then use the bible as a reliable reference. which was written after jesus died. how hypocritical.

[Gareth]

the quran was not written untill over 100 years after mohammed died so how do we know if it is even reliable

you make this claim but then use the bible as a reliable reference. which was written after jesus died. how hypocritical.

Far shorter than 100 years, but I see your point. The first references to Christ were in Paul's letters written 20 years after his death. Then the first gospel was published 30 or so years after his death.

[ciaranxavier]

Far shorter than 100 years, but I see your point. The first references to Christ were in Paul's letters written 20 years after his death. Then the first gospel was published 30 or so years after his death.

and on top of that there are something like 30 known gospels and only a handful of them were used.

[Gareth]

Aha, because many were written 300 to 400 years after, they could not be trusted. Secondly, the reason we can put authenticity on the Gospels is that they were in Kohine Greek the typical universal language of the Middle East and Asia Minor apart from their native Aramaic and Hebrew. However, on further study, the writings that are apocryphal are written in Syriac, and Coptic. Don't you think theologians have studied these? I have the collection of the gospels you speak of, and I have read many of them. Interesting point of discussion however.

More interesting is that most of these documents put forward Trinitarian views of God, only very few which are certainly written by heretical sects such as the Ebionites do not view Jesus Christ as a part of the Trinity or as divine, bringing it back to the main point.

[demonarundo]

ali, this is good work, right up until you flick through to the start of John. The Word was God, and the Word was with God, and the Word was made flesh!


The start of john was : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

where did you get this part of fresh !!!!

[Gareth]

John 1:14

[demonarundo]

To those who say that Jusus is god

Can any of those get a word from bible that Jusus say Iam god or whorship me !!!

I challenge


to any who think that jesus is god
lets see this debate about is jesus god : Here (http://www.archive.org/download/69_Is_Jesus_God/69_Is_Jesus_God_128KB.rmvb)

Or just hang around this page : http://english.truthway.tv/

[Gareth]

demonarundo: If you cannot trust that verse in John, you cannot trust any of John. It's rather simple.

Mind you there are other references to the Trinity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#Scriptural_texts_cited_as_implying_support

What is the point in using the Bible, if you cannot trust the Apostles, you cannot trust the Bible. Even though the New Testament books are dated to the 1st century, some people still want to doubt everything that it in it.

Why quote from one part of a Gospel, when you don't believe in another.

[quirk]

To those who say that Jusus is god

Can any of those get a word from bible that Jusus say Iam god or whorship me !!!

I challenge

Indeed. As the original post in the thread shows he seemed to suggest the opposite, the following being one case:

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone. (Mr 10:18 )

[demonarundo]

demonarundo: If you cannot trust that verse in John, you cannot trust any of John. It's rather simple.

What is the point in using the Bible, if you cannot trust the Apostles, you cannot trust the Bible. Even though the New Testament books are dated to the 1st century, some people still want to doubt everything that it in it.

Why quote from one part of a Gospel, when you don't believe in another.


abou john , we was never one of the Apostles , you could ask any historian

but in the opposite he was an enemy for jesus and christians , he was searching for them and killing them , but he found that he couldnt end this that way , then he atart to think in ending that belief by entering it as cancer
and start to change in from inside to deform it the way he wish
and he succeed.

[quirk]

I think you are referring to Paul (Saul).

[Gareth]

abou john , we was never one of the Apostles , you could ask any historian

but in the opposite he was an enemy for jesus and christians , he was searching for them and killing them , but he found that he couldnt end this that way , then he atart to think in ending that belief by entering it as cancer
and start to change in from inside to deform it the way he wish
and he succeed.

John of Zebedee for the Gospel. John of Pathmos wrote Revelations.

Personally I don't take your word to be more value than the divinely revealed word of the Gospel of John.

[demonarundo]

I think you are referring to Paul (Saul).

Ya sorry i mistake , I meant Paul

[Gareth]

Even though Paul was chosen by the other Apostles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Hm. And Jesus said that the Spirit would guide them in their decisions, and He gave them the leadership of the Church. I think Paul's appointment is most acceptable given the Biblical history.

[CoolockRepublican]

and on top of that there are something like 30 known gospels and only a handful of them were used.

could you show links for your claim ciaran.

[ciaranxavier]

could you show links for your claim ciaran.

what claims go google it its a well known fact that there are more gospels known to the world then are included in the bible. im not doing your homework for you. and welcome back long time no talk.

[Gareth]

he's speaking from fact, I have the books mentioned in a one volume edition on my book rack. However I've also explained clearly why there were not chosen. Many were not even known at the time of the Council of Nicea as they were published so late, and the texts that have been confirmed historically to have been used from the Apostles time onwards were chosen.

[CoolockRepublican]

Indeed. As the original post in the thread shows he seemed to suggest the opposite, the following being one case:

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone. (Mr 10:18 )

quirk this affirmation that he is in fact GOD,he is saying you call me good,yet you know only GOD is good.

[quirk]

quirk this affirmation that he is in fact GOD,he is saying you call me good,yet you know only GOD is good.

From my reading he is saying he himself is not good, thus he asks them why they call him good when only God and not he is good.

[CoolockRepublican]

From my reading he is saying he himself is not good, thus he asks them why they call him good when only God and not he is good.

The Skeptics ordinarily don't listen to Jesus, but rather amusingly, they do listen carefully on this one (version taken from Mark 10:17-18, but Luke reads no different, and Matthew, though reading differently, really doesn't change the "problem"):

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
From this passage the idea is sometimes taken that Jesus is denying his own goodness, and therefore, throwing out any chance of being recognized as part of the Godhead. The standard explanation is that Jesus is essentially saying to the ruler, "Do you know what you are implying? You say I am good; but only God is good; therefore, you realize that you are identifying me with God?" [Brooks, commentary on Mark, 162] In Jewish thought, God was pre-eminently good, so that the ruler was indeed offering Jesus a compliment usually reserved for God. Since it is quite unlikely that the ruler truly believed that Jesus was identifiable as God the Son, this looks more like an effort by Jesus to make the man think about what he is saying before he blurts it out or engages in indiscriminate flattery.

Confirmation and elucidation of this explanation is found in Malina and Rohrbaugh's Social-Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels (123) in which they explain that in an agonistic (honor-shame) culture, a "compliment" like the rich young man's is actually a challenge and an attempt to put Jesus "on the spot" for they are an implicit accusation that one has been trying to rise above others. Jesus' only alternative was indeed to parry the compliment and redirect it to its appropriate subject (unless he wanted to reveal himself directly and fully, in which case, his claim would have been another challenge of honor to others!), thus showing himself honorable by diffusing any accusation that would arouse the envy of an opponent. Thus it is appropriate that Jesus parry the compliment in a way that does not specifically deny his membership in the Godhead (which, as noted, it does not).

In short, there isn't anything here that has Jesus denying goodness, or membership in the Godhead -- just teaching an overenthusiast and.or challenger a lesson

[demonarundo]

NO use of asking that stupid question
Because This is a One of the greatest debates, where Sheikh Ahmed Deedat and Pastor Stanley Sjoberg was discussing one of the most important issues in Christianity... it's really a great debate and worth seeing .. don't miss it!

Is Jesus God?

http://www.archive.org/download/69_Is_Jesus_God/69_Is_Jesus_God_128KB.rmvb

Open with real player / GOM player w codecs , 134 MB