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quirk
03-09-2008, 10:46 AM
by John Puntis
July 2002

In 1922 the Soviet Union experienced severe famine conditions in some areas following on from the wars of intervention when imperialist powers had sought to crush the new Soviet state. Famine conditions recurred again in 1933, particularly, but not exclusively, in the Ukraine. There are two versions to this second famine that are radically different. An objective analysis indicates the famine to have resulted from a combination of poor climatic conditions and sabotage on the part of the rich peasants or kulaks in the face of the collectivisation of agriculture. Ukrainian nationalists however argue that the famine was deliberately contrived by Stalin in order to break the spirit of the Ukrainian people, and resulted in millions of needless deaths, in fact death and destruction on such a scale that it dwarfs the Nazi holocaust. Documentary evidence produced to support this claim is often endorsed by academics such as Robert Conquest, or James Mace of Harvard University. Such evidence is shaky in the extreme and often relies on discredited accounts from the 1930’s pro-fascist press in America, or even Nazi documents. Despite this it continues to resurface, most notably in the 1980s as part of an attempt by Ukrainian nationalists to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the famine, and at the same time to fuel the cold war rhetoric of the Reagan era.

The same old grainy photographic images appear time and time again, purporting to show victims of the Ukraine famine, but these are almost always undocumented, or if traced back actually come from famine relief documents from the 1922 famine or even earlier. Cobbled together in the film ‘Harvest of Despair’ such pictures were shown on UK television despite having been rejected by some public service networks in the US because of a blatant lack of objectivity. Ukrainian nationalist organisations in Canada and elsewhere continue to propagate the notion of deliberate famine genocide, while carefully glossing over their own anti-semitic, pro-Nazi and collaborationist origins. A search on the web for ‘Ukrainian Famine Genocide’ resulted in 845 references to this ‘man made’ famine, as usual graphically illustrated with pictures for an earlier era. In this talk I will explore some of the background to these various claims and counter claims, with reference to the excellent book on the subject by Douglas Tottle (Fraud, famine and fascism. The Ukrainian genocide myth from Hitler to Harvard. Progress Books, Toronto, 1987. ISBN 0-919396-51-8)

Journalistic fraud in the 1930s

In the autumn of 1934, an American using the name of Thomas Walker entered the Soviet Union. After less than a week in Moscow, the remainder of his 13 day stay was spent in transit to the Manchurian border, at which point he left the USSR never to return. Four months later a series of articles began in the Hearst press in America, by Thomas Walker, “noted journalist, traveller and student of Russian affairs who has spent several years touring the Union of Soviet Russia”. The articles described a famine in the Ukraine that had claimed six million lives, and was illustrated with photographs of corpses and starving children. Walker was said to have smuggled in a camera under “the most difficult and dangerous circumstances”.

Louis Fischer, an American writer living in Moscow at the time was suspicious. Why had the Hearst press sat on these sensational stories for ten months before publication? He established that Walker’s short visit to the Soviet Union could not possibly have allowed him to even visit the areas he described and photographed. He also pointed out that Walker’s photographic evidence was distinctly odd: not only were the pictures suggestive of an earlier decade (Fischer thought probably of the 1921 Volga famine) but contained a mixture of scenes taken in both summer and winter. Fischer also noted that the 1933 harvest in the Ukraine had been good.

Some of the pictures were subsequently identified as showing scenes from the Austro-Hungarian empire and World War 1, and it was known that Hearst newspapers were digging up old pictures and retouching them for use as propaganda. Pictures some times appeared labelled as having been taken in Russia, and at other times the same picture is relocated to the Ukraine for obviously political reasons. Not only were the photographs a fraud, and the trip to the Ukraine a fraud, but Thomas Walker himself was a fraud, turning out to be an escaped convict by the name of Robert Green who had served time for forgery. At his subsequent trial following recapture he admitted that his series of pictures used in the Hearst newspaper articles were fakes and were not taken in the Ukraine as stated. Despite these facts, the same photos are still those used in commemoration posters, on web sites and in the film ‘Harvest of Despair’.

The Hearst Press

The Hearst Press needless to say continued with its famine genocide campaign despite the Walker fiasco. This is not surprising when we consider that Hearst himself was known to millions of Americans as "America's number one fascist". (One of Mussolini's chief sources of personal income during the early 1930s was from being a paid correspondent for the Hearst Press).

In 1934 Hearst visited Nazi Germany and met Hitler. Following this visit, the Hearst Press began to promote famine genocide articles on the Ukraine. French premier, Edward Herriot who had recently returned from travelling in the Ukraine publicised the fact that he had seen no evidence of any famine. Following the Walker articles, Hearst went on to try and convince Americans that the Soviet Union was a land of utter starvation, genocide and cannibalism. At the time this was often recognised as politically motivated sensationalism, but over the passage of years these fabrications have become transformed into "primary evidence".

By noting those features of the 1930s campaign and the selective memories of those who helped the Hearst Press in propagating the famine-genocide thesis, light can be cast on the character of today's famine-genocide campaign.

Simultaneously with the launch of Hearst's 1935 outpourings, the Nazi press in Germany and sympathetic papers elsewhere in Europe began publishing similar stories. At this time a book by Dr Ewald Ammende was published entitled "Human life in Russia". This has had a lasting influence on those who propagate the famine-genocide myth, and was republished in 1984. The book makes little pretence of objectivity crediting Hearst correspondents, accounts from Nazi German and Fascist Italy, and reproducing allegations by unnamed 'travellers' and 'experts'.

Most photographic evidence of the famine-genocide theorists can be traced back either to Ammende's book or to Thomas Walker. The origins of the photographs are not documented, although it should be noted that Ammende was involved with famine relief work in 1921-2. The pictures are said to have been taken in the streets and squares of Kharkov in the summer of 1933, although only 10 of 26 appear to show urban scenes. There are no signs or landmarks to help set them in context. "Human Life in Russia" contains additional pictures that did not appear in the German edition. These are claimed to have been taken by Dr Ditloff, director of the German Government Agricultural concession in the north Caucuses. One might wonder how a Nazi functionary came to be wandering freely around the Ukraine taking photographs, but in any case in later publications the same photographs are either unattributed or attributed to a completely different source. In fact, some pictures have been identified as coming from the 1922 famine, and some show winter scenes despite apparently having been taken in summer. Other publications use the same pictures either with no accreditation or accredited to Thomas Walker, despite the fact that they were used to portray events in 1932/3 and Walker claimed to have taken them in the spring of 1934.

It is clear that the photographic evidence is fraudulent, and was used primarily as part of a campaign to undermine and discredit the Soviet Union. Despite this, they continue to be used to this day.

Cold War

The famine genocide campaign of the 1930s leaned heavily on dubious right wing sources and was not accepted by mainstream historians at the time, leading some Ukrainian nationalists to speak of a pro-Soviet, left wing or even Jewish conspiracy to suppress the truth. In the 1950s the Nationalists published books such as "The Black Deeds of the Kremlin" to propagate their interpretation of history. A section is devoted to Nationalist allegations of Soviet mass executions during the 1930s in Vynnitsa. Unearthed during Nazi occupation in 1943, the graves were examined by a Nazi commission and used in propaganda films. Post war testimony by German soldiers revealed however, that this was a Nazi propaganda deception, the bodies being those of Jews executed by the SS and Ukrainian militia.

The gruesome allegations of cannibalism in volume 2 of "Black Deeds" has lead to it being referred to as the "Ukrainian Nationalist cookbook"!

The numbers game

The famine genocide theorists are keen to establish that millions of people died in the Ukraine. Their methodology, as usual, is highly suspect. A "landmark study" by Dana Dalrymple published in "Soviet Studies", 1964 comes up with a figure of 5.5 million based on averaging the guesses of 20 Western journalists. One of them is our fictional friend Thomas Walker. Dalrymple states that Walker made his survey by breaking away from a guided tour, and had previously spent several years touring Russia. A similar figure by the Archbishop of Canterbury is also quoted; this enthusiastic supporter of Hitler had attempted to raise the famine issue in the House of Lords in 1934 when in fact the Foreign Office stated that there was no evidence to support the allegations against the Soviet government. Needless to say, the testimony of Sir John Maynard, a renowned famine expert who visited the Ukraine in the summer of 1933 and rejected tales of famine-genocide is dismissed by the Nationalists.

The Cold War campaign resurfaced in the 1980s with considerable publicity and scholarly backing from the Ukrainian Research Institute of Harvard University, long a centre of anticommunist research. In 1983, the book "The Ninth Circle", first published by Ukrainian Nationalists in 1953 was republished, edited and introduced by Harvard's Dr James Mace. A critical review of this book described it as being "a polemic, devoid of any documentation, and lacking in any scholarship". The author, it was pointed out, fails to give any details about his activity during the Nazi occupation of Ukraine, and makes not a single derogatory comment about the Nazis. Once again the Thomas Walker fakes are used as illustrations, despite the author claiming to have been an eyewitness to the famine. The "academic" Mace writing of Walker's material states, "American newspaperman like Thomas Walker wrote plainspoken and graphic accounts of the Famine based on what they had witnessed in the Ukraine in 1933". Note the convenient backdating of Walkers trip to 1933 and not 1934.

Another contribution to the famine genocide literature is Walter Dushnyk's "50 years ago: the Famine Holocaust in Ukraine". The foreword to this book is by none other than Dalrymple. Dushnyk's roots can be traced to Europe's pre-war fascist movement when he was active in the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists. Again a critical reviewer comments that this book, "rather than being a scholarly analysis, the material consists of a highly emotionally charged vitriolic polemic. Indeed it has little to do with scholarship and unquestionably is lacking in objectivity". Once again the same faked or undocumented photographs are used as illustrations. Dushnyk calculates the number of famine deaths by projecting an anticipated population growth, based on the 1926 census, onto the listed population census for the Ukraine in 1939. The difference is 7.5 million and this therefore becomes the number of famine victims. The nonsense of this methodology can be demonstrated by transposing to Canada in the 1930s and showing that 25% of Saskatchewan's population disappeared during the great depression. In fact, the population of the Ukraine increased in real terms from 1926 - 1939 by almost 3.4 million. Whilst it is not possible to give an accurate figure for the numbers of famine victims, the claims of people like Dalrymple, Mace and Dushnyk have been shown up as extreme exaggerations fabricated to strengthen their political allegations of genocide.

Harvest of deception

The famine-genocide campaign reached a climax in 1986 with the publication of Robert Conquest's book "Harvest of Sorrow", and the film produced by the famine research committee of the St Vladimir Institute, "Harvest of Despair". The film is full of the old undocumented pictures, and relies heavily on interviews with former Nazis and Ukrainian collaborators, as well as defectors from the Soviet Union; even Malcolm Muggeridge pops up for a short appearance. The film’s producers apparently viewed more than a million feet of stock footage of film, before selecting a mere 720 feet for use. Instead of any documented evidence of the famine being presented, a montage of undocumented stills are shown including the Walker/Ditlofff pictures, 1921/2 famine pictures, and others from Nazi propaganda publications. With breathtaking disregard for the truth, some scenes borrow from film of the civil war, and Soviet films of the 1920s. In essence, it seems that the film makers scrounged through the archives looking for bits and pieces of old ‘war-and-starvation’ shots that were then spliced into the film to great subliminal effect, bound together by a narrative and interspersed with partisan interviews. So much has even been admitted by some of those involved, yet the film has been widely shown and praised, including on British television. The makers even received grants and logistical support for the National Film Board of Canada and another publicly funded body, Multiculturalism Canada. "Harvest of Despair" was clearly no objective documentary as is claimed, but rather a crude cold war propaganda exercise.

Conquest's book "Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivisation and the Terror famine" has emerged as the best attempt of the famine-genocidists at legitimacy. Conquest's right wing affiliations and his holocaust denials are now well known. At one time he was employed by the British Secret Service's disinformation project, the Information Research Department, key targets being 'the third world' and the 'Russians'. Conquest's earlier work "The Great Terror" had alleged that only 5-6 million perished in the 1932/3 period and only half of them in the Ukraine. By 1983 Conquest, however, had upped his estimates to 14 million and extended famine conditions to 1937! Such revisions coincided handily with the 50th anniversary commemorations of the famine.

Conquest presents the various nationalist cliques who held parts of the Ukraine during the Russian civil war and foreign intervention as bona fide governments. The mass slaughter of Ukrainian Jews carried out under nationalist 'independence' in 1918-19 is dismissed in 3 words. The Nazi occupation of the Ukraine is presented implicitly as a breakdown between periods of Soviet 'terror' and the liberation from the Nazis as Soviet 'reoccupation'. There are many examples in the book of Conquest's lack of scholarship. One example is him quoting from accounts by a foreign correspondent who turns out to be none other than Thomas Walker, the man who never was. In his reference note for the quote he even moves the date of the Hearst article from 1935 to February 1933. It is worth repeating the observations of American historian J Arch Getty on the quality of this kind of historical research:

"Grand analytical generalisations have come from second hand bits of overheard corridor gossip. Prison camp stories ("my friend met Bukharin's wife in a camp and she said...") have become primary sources on Soviet central political decision making .... the need to generalise from isolated and unverified particulars has transformed rumours into sources and has equated repetition of stories with confirmation".

Whereas serious historians do not accept hearsay and rumour as historical fact, contrast this with Conquest's stated position that "Truth can only percolate in the form of hearsay" and "on political matters basically the best, though not infallible source is rumour".

The famine

Coming now to the famine itself and its causes, the factors of drought and sabotage during the process of collectivisation are generally given little attention by right wing historians. Interestingly, in "A History of the Ukraine" by Mikhail Hrushevsky - described by the Nationalists themselves as "Ukraine's leading historian" - we read that "Again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-3 a great famine, like that of 1921-2 swept across Soviet Ukraine". Nowhere does this history suggest that the famine was deliberate and aimed against Ukrainians, and in fact more space is devoted to the famine of 1921-22. There are many references to drought conditions in the Ukraine in 1931 and 1932. Even Ewald Ammende in his "Human Life in Russia" refers to climatic and natural causes of the famine.

While drought was a contributing factor, the main cause of the famine was the struggle around collectivisation of the countryside in this period. In 1928 there were millions of small scale peasant farms, three quarters of the land was sown by hand, one third of the crop areas was harvested by sickle and scythe, 40% of the crop was threshed by flail. Over one quarter of peasant households possessed no draught animals or farming implements, and 47% had only ploughs. The drive to collectivisation was a key feature of the first five year plan launched in 1929. The small minority of rich peasants, the kulaks, opposed socialisation of agriculture and fought against collectivisation with an organised campaign of large-scale destruction. The struggle in some areas including the Ukraine approached civil war scale. Visiting foreign observers at the time noted that kulak opposition took the form of slaughtering their cattle and horses rather than having them collectivised. From 1928-33 the number of horses in the Soviet Union fell from 30 to 15 million, cattle from 70 to 38 million, sheep and goats from 147 to 50 million. Some kulaks burned down the property of collectives and even burned their own crops and seed grain. Many famine-genocide theorists discount kulak sabotage, but others offer enthusiastic descriptions celebrating the opposition to Soviet planning. In addition the famine was compounded by typhus epidemics which undoubtedly claimed many lives. By 1933 there was a successful harvest, enormous efforts were put into improving collective farms and providing mechanised equipment.

Subsequent huge increases in agricultural and industrial output in the Ukraine leading up to the second world war give the lie to allegations or 7 - 15 million starvation deaths only seven years earlier. In addition, the record of Ukrainian resistance to the Nazis and their Ukrainian nationalist auxiliaries was exemplary. In the largest eastern portion of the Ukraine loyalty was overwhelming and active. There were over half a million organised Soviet guerrillas, and four and a half million ethnic Ukrainians fought in the Soviet army. The Ukrainian nationalist histories acknowledge this, and one can only wonder at the ability of a nation to mobilise such numbers of military aged males in the light of Nationalist claims about famine victims. The reality was that for the bulk of the Ukrainian peasants, workers and the professionals newly emerged from those classes, the Soviet system had demonstrated overwhelming economic and cultural advantages.

The only place where the Nationalists found any kind of base during the Nazi occupation was in what had been up to 1939 Polish Galicia; this is where the Nazis did their bulk of recruiting for the fascist police and SS units. An examination of what happened during the Nazi occupation is revealing not only in terms of the popular support for the Soviets demonstrated by the people of the Ukraine, but also for the role played by the Ukrainian Nationalists.

Collaboration and collusion

In June 1941 the Nazi army entered Lviv, capital of the Western Ukraine. In its vanguard came the German-uniformed Nachtigall Battalion of Ukrainian Nationalists. During the first three days of July the Nachtigall Battalion slaughtered seven thousand Jews in the vicinity of Lwow. Non-Jewish writers, intellectuals and professionals known to be hostile to Nazism were also killed. In the first 8 months of Nazi occupation 15% of Galician Jews - 100,000 people - were slaughtered by the joint actions of the Germans and Ukrainian nationalists. Many thousands of Nationalists who fled to Germany and elsewhere in the wake of the retreating Nazi armies had to cover up their personal and collective guilt in the holocaust and betrayal of their country. Anti-semitic and fascist themes run deep through the history of the Ukrainian nationalist movement. Leaders of the Ukrainian Nationalists were on the payroll of the Nazi party before Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. Ukrainian Nationalist battalions were trained in Germany before the war and some were used in the invasion of Poland. The Nachtigall and Roland Ukrainian volunteer detachments fought with the German army and in late 1941 were reorganised into a Police Battalion and employed in Byelorussia. Despite this being well known, the famine genociders portray the nationalists as having fought against both Hitler and Stalin and somehow on a par with the French resistance. Similarly distorted is the role of the 14th Waffen SS Galizien Division (also known as the Halychyna Division). Formed in 1943 its main function was brutal anti-partisan work. Even after German withdrawal from the Ukraine, nationalists stayed behind and continued to harass Soviet supply lines. Nationalist troops served Hitler in Ukraine, Poland, Byelorussia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Ukrainian collaborators assisted in the murder of hundreds of thousands in death camps like Treblinka, Sobibor, Yanowska and Trawniki. Such were the "anti-Nazi" credentials of those who nationalists today would present as "national liberation fighters", "heroes of the Ukrainian people" and "patriots who struggled for a free Ukraine".

After the war

After the allied victory over Nazi Germany many collaborators sought to escape justice and retribution, looking for new lives in North America and elsewhere. Western intelligence agencies helped sanitise Nazi collaborators for emigration to new homelands in return for a new collaboration against Russia. The International Refugee Organisation as well as the US Displaced Persons Commission initially regarded the Ukrainian Nazis as ineligible for visas. This did not stop American intelligence agencies from presenting the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists as having been engaged in anti-Nazi combat. This was a complete fabrication, but persuaded the immigration authorities to change their stance. Laundered East European collaborators were put to work at Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty, the Voice of America and schools training US intelligence officers in East European languages. Some were trained for sabotage operations within the Soviet Union and others employed as living witnesses of "communist terror" in the psychological conditioning of the American people for war against the USSR. The Ukrainian "famine-genocide" was but one of many themes. Ultimately it became more important to the immigration authorities in the US and Canada whether one might be considered a communist rather than to have been a Nazi collaborator.

Conclusion

Over 65 years ago the fakery and political motivation of the pro-fascist publisher William Hearst were exposed by the American journalist Louis Fischer. In examining the record of those propagating the famine genocide campaign today, one is drawn to Fischer's conclusion:

"The attempt is too transparent, and the hands are too unclean to succeed."

http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html

Spirit
03-23-2008, 04:15 PM
where did you get this from? it has nothing to do with the historic facts.
Oh, i see... Written by John Puntis - it say everything -> http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html
No comment, folks...
go on, I´m proud of you

Viv
03-23-2008, 04:21 PM
where did you get this from? it has nothing to do with the historic facts.
Oh, i see... Written by John Puntis - it say everything -> http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html
No comment, folks...
go on, I´m proud of you

Go on, Spirit, put us right...;)

What is your version of events?

quirk
03-23-2008, 04:25 PM
where did you get this from? it has nothing to do with the historic facts.
Oh, i see... Written by John Puntis - it say everything -> http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html
No comment, folks...
go on, I´m proud of you

We should worry more about the content than who wrote it. Do you dispute the facts as given and which ones?

Spirit
03-23-2008, 04:36 PM
It is not a "myth", it´s the tragic history of my country. The famine was man-made, there´s no doubt about it. The autor of the article is just trying to manipulate people´s mind, in my opinion. I do tolerate different political orientations, but i will never understand, how people can admire such person like Stalin...
@Viv
->
http://helsinki.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1193306199
if you´re interested, i´ll try to find more information in english on the web.

quirk
03-23-2008, 04:38 PM
Why would the Soviet authorities have created a famine when the most scarce resource in the USSR at that time was manpower?

Viv
03-23-2008, 05:53 PM
It is not a "myth", it´s the tragic history of my country. The famine was man-made, there´s no doubt about it. The autor of the article is just trying to manipulate people´s mind, in my opinion. I do tolerate different political orientations, but i will never understand, how people can admire such person like Stalin...
@Viv
->
http://helsinki.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1193306199
if you´re interested, i´ll try to find more information in english on the web.

I am interested. Thank you...

Viv
03-23-2008, 06:06 PM
It is not a "myth", it´s the tragic history of my country. The famine was man-made, there´s no doubt about it. The autor of the article is just trying to manipulate people´s mind, in my opinion. I do tolerate different political orientations, but i will never understand, how people can admire such person like Stalin...
@Viv
->
http://helsinki.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1193306199
if you´re interested, i´ll try to find more information in english on the web.

I read the link. In your view, why was that done? Why was the grain requisitioned and was the result of this action foreseen? Presumably not many governments would consciously inflict starvation on their people (excluding the British;))

BlackBaron
03-23-2008, 10:45 PM
Why would the Soviet authorities have created a famine when the most scarce resource in the USSR at that time was manpower?

You dont understand the nature of Soviet power because you dont understand the nature of Holy Russia.

Understand one and you will understand the other.

quirk
03-23-2008, 10:54 PM
You dont understand the nature of Soviet power because you dont understand the nature of Holy Russia.

Understand one and you will understand the other.

You didn't answer the question. What possible reason would there have been to create a famine?

BlackBaron
03-23-2008, 11:06 PM
You didn't answer the question. What possible reason would there have been to create a famine?

Look have you never come across Lenin and Trotsky's HATRED of the Russian peasantry?

Are you going to pretend that that did not exist?

In order to wipe out the memory of the True Orthodox Christ from the face of the earth.

quirk
03-23-2008, 11:11 PM
Look have you never come across Lenin and Trotsky's HATRED of the Russian peasantry?

Are you going to pretend that that did not exist?

In order to wipe out the memory of the True Orthodox Christ from the face of the earth.

Lenin and Trotsky in 1933?

BlackBaron
03-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Lenin and Trotsky in 1933?

The foundation of Bholesvikism was laid by Lenin and Trotsky. Stalin only started to seriously reinterput it during the so called Great Patriotic War when it was necessary to revive "patriotic" and even "religious" images in order to motivate people to die for the "gains" of the October Revolution.

Mono Tejano
03-23-2008, 11:18 PM
Look have you never come across Lenin and Trotsky's HATRED of the Russian peasantry?

Are you going to pretend that that did not exist?

In order to wipe out the memory of the True Orthodox Christ from the face of the earth.

The issue wasn't so much Lenin's or Trotsky's hatred of Russian peasants. It was Stalin desire to crush the local control of UKRAINIAN peasants and the so-called kulaks who were openly opposing his plans for collectivization and grain collection.

Having lived in Ukraine I can say (though none of you are required to take my word for it) that the famine did in fact happen as a direct result of the actions of the Soviet government.

The drought was a factor, I will grant you that. As was the lack of development and machinery in the agricultural sector. But these were by bno means sufficient to explain the deaths of 6 to 7 million people.

If the Soviet government had given a damn about man power or the simple survival of its own people they would have stopped exporting grain once mass starvation began. They did not do this. They continued to export millions of tonns of grain throughtout the course of 1932 - 1934.

Claiming that the famine is a 'myth' is rediculous revisionist history by those who wish to 'rehaibilitate' Joseph Stalin and the 'great' USSR.

good luck with that.

quirk
03-23-2008, 11:19 PM
The foundation of Bholesvikism was laid by Lenin and Trotsky. Stalin only started to seriously reinterput it during the so called Great Patriotic War when it was necessary to revive "patriotic" and even "religious" images in order to motivate people to die for the "gains" of the October Revolution.

But why target Ukraine then? Why not destroy all the Peasants?

donquixote99
03-23-2008, 11:22 PM
Why would the Soviet authorities have created a famine when the most scarce resource in the USSR at that time was manpower?

Quirk, this bit of debate depends on a premise not in evidence--that manpower was 'the most scarce resource.' And there is a meta-premise not in evidence: that Stalin and his people based policy on 'rational management of scarce resources.'

I have big doubts both times. In any case, we need to get to the facts, and I think arguments about what Stalin 'must' have wanted are a pretty soft approach. Physical evidence and primary sources, that's the ticket.

donquixote99
03-23-2008, 11:37 PM
Presumably not many governments would consciously inflict starvation on their people (excluding the British;))

Why would you presume that, Viv? That is, if you believe the British government capable of such, why do you presume it is exceptional? Does something make the British more evil than people in general?

I think the British are not more evil, I think they as 'just as evil.' That is, I think people everywhere are capable and likey to be beastly toward 'others,' especially when mobs, collectives, or governments are involved.

quirk
03-23-2008, 11:43 PM
Quirk, this bit of debate depends on a premise not in evidence--that manpower was 'the most scarce resource.' And there is a meta-premise not in evidence: that Stalin and his people based policy on 'rational management of scarce resources.'

I have big doubts both times. In any case, we need to get to the facts, and I think arguments about what Stalin 'must' have wanted are a pretty soft approach. Physical evidence and primary sources, that's the ticket.

But the primary sources should be provided to show that the famine was man made not the other way around. The onus is on them asserting that it was to provide the evidence.

Also I never argued about what Stalin must have wanted but the Soviet Union. Stalin did not have total power as is commonly assumed.

BlackBaron
03-23-2008, 11:56 PM
But why target Ukraine then? Why not destroy all the Peasants?

Because of the strength of the Catacomb True Orthodox Church (which is still underground today) in the Ukraine. Some areas of the former Russian Empire were more loyal to God and Tsar than others.

Where were the struggles and martyrdoms againist Passportization in the 1960s?

BlackBaron
03-24-2008, 12:06 AM
BLACK FAMINE IN UKRAINE 1932-33
A STRUGGLE FOR EXISTENCE
by
Andrew Gregorovich

UKRAINE, "the breadbasket of Europe" is a land famous for its fertile black earth and its golden wheat. Yet, only forty years ago seven million Ukrainians starved to death although no natural catastrophe had visited the land. Forty years ago the people starved while the Soviet Union exported butter and grain. While Moscow banqueted, Ukraine hungered.

Stark, cold, statistics, the accounts of thousands of Ukrainian survivors and German; English and American eyewitnesses, as well as confessions of Moscow's agents and the admission of Stalin himself: All these have slowly seeped out of the Iron Curtain and have been piled into a tremendous mountain of facts. The whole story, pieced together like a jig-saw puzzle, ends with the biggest puzzle of all: Why did Moscow decide to starve to death seven million Ukrainians?
THE CLOAK OF DECEIT: "COLLECTIVIZATION"

THIS GREAT CRIME OF GENOCIDE AGAINST the Ukrainian people has not been completely ignored by the history books of the world. Any history of the Soviet Union will mention the triumph of "Collectivization" in which the Kulaks, or well-off farmers, were "liquidated as a class." Collectivized farming, which is today the most inefficient agricultural system in existence, had to be instituted for Marxist reasons. The Kulaks (Kurkulsin Ukrainian) constituted only 4 to 5% of the peasantry -- yet they endangered the success of Communism!

The Communist Party on January 5, 1930, as part of the first Five Year Plan, started the machinery of Collectivization rolling. Collective is, incidentally Kolkhoz in Russian and Kolhosp in Ukrainian. The Russian peasantry demonstrated little opposition to Moscow because of their past tradition of communal farming. The Russian mir, or village commune, where the land is owned by the village and not by the individual, had for centuries prepared the Russians psychologically for Collectivization. On July 30, 1930 the first RSFSR decree abolishing the mir was passed to make way for the Collectives.

The Ukrainians, on the other hand, had an independent, individualistic farming tradition of private ownershp of land. The Russian communal spirit was comething completely foreign to the farmers of Ukraine and so they opposed Moscow bitterly. While the collectivization in the Russian Republic (RSFSR) went on schedule, the stubborn resistance of the Ukrainians slowed it down to such a standstill that Moscow even had to retreat temporarily. This was noted by Stalin in his famous "Dizzy with Success" letter. One way the Ukrainian farmer showed his opposition to collectivization was by slaughtering his livestock before joining. Later a death penalty was passed for such an action. The folowing table shows the tremendous drop in livestock:

Livestock in Ukraine
Horses Cattle Sheep Hogs
1928 5,300,000 8,600,000 8,100,000 7,000,000
1935 2,600,000 4,400,000 2,000,000 2,000,000
Source: Ukrainian Encyclopedia, page 1064

WHY DID THE FAMINE TAKE PLACE?

OPPOSlTlON TO COLLECTIVIZATION is only half the story why Moscow created the famine in Ukraine. The Ukrainian opposition was not only ideological, that is against Communism, but also political. Russian nationalism reared its ugly head at this time. The Kremlin used the famine as a political weapon to destroy Ukrainian aspirations for independence. At the same time as the famine (1932-34) a wave of persecutions of thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers and leaders took place. Plots for liberating Ukraine were discovered not only in the smallest villages but even in the top ranks of the Ukrainian Communist Party itself. Purges took hundreds of Ukrainians. Suicide was the escape of many. In 1933 the famous writer Mykola Khvylovy and the veteran Ukrainian Communist, Mykola Skrypnyk, both chose suidde.

"This famine," says the American authority William H. Chamberlin, "may fairly be called political because it was not the result of any overwhelming natural catastrophe or of ... a complete exhaustion of the country's resources... "
THE STRANGEST WAR IN HISTORY

THE DEATH AND DESOLATION caused by the famine is likened to war by many of the eyewitnesses. And in fact, the unequal struggle between the peasants of Ukraine and the agent of the Russian Kremlin certainly may be accurately called a "war". This Ukrainian-Russian "war" between peasants armed with pitchforks and the Red Army and Secret Police, was carried out mercilessly with no pity for the aged or young, nor for women and children. According to Bertram D. Wolfe: "Villages were surrounded and laid waste, set to the torch, attacked by tanks and artillery and bombs from the air. A Secret Police Colonel, almost sobbing, told the writer Isaac Deutscher:

"I am an old Bolshevik. I worked in the underground against the Tsar and then I fought in the civil war. Did I do all that in order that I should now surround villages with machine-guns and order my men to fire indiscriminately into crowds of peasants? Oh no, no!"

One Moscow agent, mighty Hatayevich, in reprimanding Comrade Victor Kravchenko, one of 100,000 men "selected by the Central Committee of the Party" to help in Collectivization said:

"... I'm not sure that you understand what has been happening. A ruthless struggle is going on between the peasantry and our regime. It's a struggle to the death. This year (1933) was a test of our strength and their endurance. It took a famine to show them who is master here. It has cost millions of lives, but the collective farm system is here to stay, We've won the war."

Hatayevich, Secretary of the Regional Committee of the Dnipropetrovsk Communist Party and one of the foremost Communist in the Ukrainian SSR reveals here that the famine was intentional, that it took millions of lives, and that he considered it a "war" aganst the Ukrainian farmers.

One woman in Poltava said, "No war ever took from us so many people." This was true, since Ukraine's losses in 1932-33 were greater than that of any nation that fought in the First World War. It should be emphasized that the main weapon in this struggle was not tanks, machine guns or bullets -- but hunger. Famine, a man-made "Collectivized" famine, was the main cause of the loss of life in this "war," one of the strangest in history.
STALIN'S CONFESSION TO CHURCHILL

WHEN SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL visited Stalin at the Kremlin in August, 1942 he asked: " ... Have the stresses of the war been as bad to you personally as carrying through the policy of the Collective Farms?"

"Oh, no" he (Stalin) said, "the Collective Farm policy was a terrible srtuggle ... Ten millions," he said, holding up his hands. "It was fearful. Four years it lasted. It was absolutely necessary ..."

Stalin admits that a complete year of World War II to him was less of a struggle than Collectivization! How gigantic the opposition of the Ukrainian peasants must have been. Stalin went on to tell the British Prime Minister that some peasants "agreed to come in with us" and were given land to cultivate in Tomsk or lrkutsk (both in Siberia). "But," Stalin added, "the great bulk (of the 10 million) were very unpopular and were wiped out by their labourers (?)."

When Nikita Khrushchev "purged" Stalin in his 1956 secret speech, he didn't say a word about this Famine, the most immense of Stalin's crimes. Instead, Khrushchev expressed concern over the "thousands" of innocent Communists that had suffered from Stalin's diabolical suspicion. It was on this occasion that Khrushchev said that Stalin considered deporting the population of Ukraine, however as Khrushchev says: "The Ukrainians avoided meeting this fate only because there were too many of them and there was no place to which to deport them. Otherwise, he would have deported them also." In his book Khrushchev Remembers (Boston, Little, Brown, 1970) the Soviet premier devotes a chapter to the famine in Ukraine, 1945.
HOW MANY DIED?

"CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES place the number of deaths in Ukraine due to this enforced famine, at about 4,800,000. Many recognized scholars, however have estimated the number between 5 million to 8 million."

This statement from a United States Senate Document (No. 122 of 1958) can be backed up with actual statistics squeezed out of the Soviet press. The Russian government, however, took special measures to keep secret the death toll. Of course, it has never admitted any statistics or even the existence of the famine. But, indirect references were accidentally made and it is possible to estimate that during the famine from 10% to 25% of Ukraine's population (32,680,700 in January 1932) starved to death.

Vasyl Hryshko, in his factual study says that in 1935 about 25,000 people died daily in the villages of Ukraine, or more than 1,000 per hour or 17 every minute. It was in early 1933 that the greatest loss of life took place. In the first half of the year foreign travel in Ukraine was banned. No newspaper correspondents were allowed to visit the besieged country until the late summer and fall when signs of the famine had been cleared up. The American journalist William Henry Chamberlin visited Ukraine immediately after the ban on travel was lifted. He says every village he visited had lost at least ten percent of its residents.

Hryshko sums up the statistics of 1932 and 1939 in this way. When we compare the 32,680,700 persons living in Ukraine in 1932 with the 1939 figure of 30,960,200 we see that, taking into account the normal 2.36 per cent annual increase, in seven years Ukraine had lost 7,465,000 persons. Of this number, Hryshko says, some 4,821,600 persons or roughly 18.8 percent of the Ukrainian population, died in the years 1932-1933.

The impact of the famine is shown in many ways. Just before World War II a survey of the number of students was made. Since children start school in the USSR at seven years of age therefore, seven years after 1932 there should be an indication of the famine by a drop in enrollment. Look at these figures:

Russian SFSR Ukraine Byelorussia
1914-15 4,965,318 1,492,878 235,065
1928-29 5,997,980 1,585,814 369,684
1938-39 7,663,669 985,598 358,507
Source: Cultural Construction of the USSR, Moscow: Government Planning Pub., 1940, pages 40-50.

The Russian Republic (where no famine took place), shows a steady increase as did all seven other Soviet Republics, with the exception of Armenia. Why did Ukraine have an absolute loss of 600,216 students and Byelorussia (also a famine area) 11,174? The tragic story of these missing school children is written in the pages of the man-made famine. Let us not forget that Stalin himself said "ten millions" some of whom suffered death not from famine but as slave laborers in Siberian mines and timber camps.
EYE WITNESSES SPEAK

HUNDREDS OF UKRAINIAN eyewitnesses of the famine have told their tragic and unbelievable experiences in the book The Black Deeds of the Kremlin, edited by S. 0. Pidhainy. The second volume of this work is devoted exclusively to "The Great Famine in Ukraine." It should be added that some of the people were able to travel to Moscow and other areas because they were technicians, etc. They testify that while they left Famine at the border of Ukraine or the Kuban (North Caucasus) area, which is also Ukrainian populated, they found no evidence of hunger in Russia or other Soviet republics, except Byelorussia. It is not possible to give even a hint of the horror and pathos in Ukraine at the time.
Writer Arthur Kaestler:

Arthur Koestler, the famous writer who visited Ukraine in late summer of 1932 and fall 1933 and who spent about three months in the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv writes in The God That Failed:

"I saw the ravages of the famine of 1932-1933 in the Ukraine: hordes of families in rags begging at the railway stations, the women lifting up to the compartment window their starving brats, which, with drumstick limbs, big cadaverous heads and puffed bellies, looked like embryos out of alcohol bottles ..."

American Traveller Carveth Wells:

Carveth Wells, a world traveller, traveled through Ukraine in July 1932 and describes the early stages of the famine in his fascinating book Kapoot.

"The extraordinary thing was that the farther we penetrated into the Ukraine, which used to be the 'Granary of Russia', the less food there was and the more starvation to be seen on every side."

"None of us knew what tragedies had been enacted here ...

"We ourselves happened to be passing through the Ukraine and the Caucasus in the very midst of the famine in July, 1932. From the train windows children could be seen eating grass. The sight of small children with stomachs enormously distended is not at all uncommon in Africa or other tropical countries, but this was the first time I had ever seen white children in such a state."

Soviet Official Victor Kravchenko:

Victor Kravchenko was a Soviet official who escaped from the USSR Embassy in the United States in 1944. He described his life in the book I Chose Freedom. In 1933 he was one of the Communist agents assigned to safeguard the new harvest, the "Harvest in Hell" as he calls it:

"Although not a word about the tragedy appeared in the newspapers, the famine that raged ... was a matter of common knowledge.

"What I saw that morning ... was inexpressibly horrible. On a battlefield men die quickly, they fight back ... Here I saw people dying in solitude by slow degrees, dying hideously, without the excuse of sacrifice for a cause. They had been trapped and left to starve, each in his own home, by a political decision made in a far-off capital around conference and banquet tables. There was not even the consolation of inevitability to relieve the horror.

"The most terrifying sights were the little children with skeleton limbs dangling from balloon-like abdomens. Starvation had wiped every trace of youth from their faces, turning them into tortured gargoyles; only in their eyes still lingered the reminder of childhood. Everywhere we found men and women lying prone (weak from hunger), their faces and bellies bloated, their eyes utterly expressionless."

Kravchenko was shocked to discover a butter plant was wrapping its products in paper titled in English USSR Butter Export.

"Anger lashed my mind as I drove back to the village. Butter being sent abroad in the midst of the famine! In London, Berlin, Paris I could see ... people eating butter stamped with a Soviet trade mark. Driving through the fields, I did not hear the lovely Ukrainian songs so dear to my heart. These people had forgotten how to sing. I could only hear the groans of the dying, and the lip-smacking of fat foreigners enjoying our butter ..."

At the same time Communist Party members and Soviet officials, the privileged classes, were specially supplied with food. Some of these, however, had a conscience and Comrade Somanov, Chief of the Political Department said:

"Victor ... I'm of peasant origin myself and the sufferings of my people hurt me deeply. Tears, blood, death, exile. And why? The land is fertile, the people are hard-working. Why must we let them starve and die and perish? The more I think of it the more confused I get."

The famine was not caused by a lack of food in Ukraine. This may seem a paradox but the cause of the famine was completely the Kremlin's decision. It locked up Ukraine's food and guarded it from the people. The Russian grain collectors did not take only the wheat from the peasants but stripped them of all food. In one village near Odessa "they collected all the grain, potatoes, beets to the last kilogram" and "in other places they even took half-baked loaves of bread from the stove." These are not mentioned by Kravchenko. He does reveal however, that these millions need not have died except at the whim of Stalin in Moscow. He says:

"When the first of the new grain was being delivered to the granary near the railroad station, I made a discovery which left me tremulous with horror. Stacked in the brick structure were thousands of poods of the previous year's (1932) grain collections These were the state reserves for the district ordered by the government, their very existence hidden from the starving population by officialdom Hundreds of men, women and children had died of undernourishment in these villages, though grain was hoarded almost outside their doors!

"The peasants who were with me when we found the 'State reserves' stared with unbelieving eyes and cursed in anger. Subsequently I came to know that in many other parts of the country the government hoarded huge reserves while peasants in those very regions died of hunger. Why this was done only Stalin's Politburo could tell -- and it didn't."

W.E.D. ALLEN

"Since that date (1926) catastrophes have befallen the rural folk of the Ukraine about 3,000,000 are reckoned to have perished during the famine of the early thirties, and another 2,000,000 certainly have migrated (to Siberia?) as a result of conditions which they have found intolerable."

The Ukraine: A History, by W.E.D. Allen, Cambridge University Press, 1941, page 375.
IVAR SPECTOR

"Hundreds of thousands of the recalcitrants were transported to Siberia to work in the forest or mines. ... Others starved during the famine which swept Ukraine in the early 1930's particularly in 1932."

An Introduction to Russian History and Culture, by Ivar Spector, D. Van Nostrand, New York, 1950.
GEORGE VERNADSKY

"... Largely as a result of the forcible collectivization of agriculture, a famine developed in Ukraine. Starvation and all it accompanying diseases stalked unchecked through the richest agricultural region in the Soviet Union, and within the space of a few months hundreds of thousands if not millions of people died in unimaginable misery."

A History of Russia, by George Vernadsky, Philadelphia, Blakiston, 1944, page 337.

"The famine of 1930-31 followed close on the heels of the chaos, which existed everywhere in agriculture, and in Ukraine in particular the suffering and starvation reached a scale which almost passes human comprehension."

A History of Russia, by George Vernadsky, New Haven, Yale University Press, 1954, page 360.
RICHARD CHARQUES

"But among the ghastly fruits of the campaign for collectivization was the 'man-made famine' of 1931-32 in the Ukraine and the northern Caucasus, where it had been resisted most fiercely and where the fields had lain almost totally neglected. There were millions of deaths from starvation in these regions."

A Short History of Russia, by Richard Charques, London, 1959, page 245.
EDWARD CRANKSHAW

"At the same time Stalin had just forced through the collectivization of agriculture ... at a fearful price ... First there were the millions of ruined lives, the lives of the rich and middle peasants, the so-called kulaks, killed in the struggle, or exiled to Siberia; then the three million dead in the great famine which swept Ukraine ..."

Russia by Daylight, by Edward Crankshaw, London, Michael Joseph, 1951, page 100

"I'm still young and want so much to live a while"

-- Zina

This letter was written to K. Riabokin, a University Professor at Kharkiv, by his niece Zina:

"Please, Uncle Do Take Me to Kharkiv."

"We have neither bread nor anything else to eat. Dad is completely exhausted from hunger and is lying on the bench, unable to get on his feet. Mother is blind from the hunger and cannot see in the least. So I have to guide her when she has to go outside. Please Uncle, do take me to Kharkiv, because I, too, will die from hunger. Please do take me, please. I'm still young and I want so much to live a while. Here I will surely die, for every one else is dying ..."

----

The Uncle received the letter at the same time that he was told of her death. He says, "I did not know what to say or what to do. My head just pounded with my neice's pathetic plea: `I'm still young and want so much to live ... Please do take me, please ...'"

BERTRAM D. WOLFE

"The peasantry fought for its life with fowling pieces and pitchforks. Uprisings embraced whole regions. Villages were surrounded and laid waste ... Districts were stripped of their stocks of grain and seed, then cordoned off to die of famine and plague."

Khrushchev and Stalin's Ghost, by Bertram D. Wolfe, Praeger, New York, 1957, page 165

"In 1932 the State decreed the death penalty for stealing a bit of coal or grain from a freight train. Then the death penalty was provided for the collectivized farmer who might steal from the fields some of the product of his "collective labor;" then for the willful slaughter of his own cattle; then for letting "cattle die by neglect." "In March 1933, thirty-five officials of the Commissariat of Agriculture were executed after being 'tried' ... for having 'willfully permitted noxious weeds to grow in the fields.'"

Khrushchev and Stalin's Ghost, by Bertram D. Wolfe, Praeger, New York, 1957, pages 169-71
DR. EWALD AMMENDE

"... Official Soviet reports referred to the 1932 harvest as of medium quality: poor results or failure were never mentioned. (page 29) 1933 was a particularly critical year for the food supply of the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, 1.8 million tons of grain and other foodstuffs were exported ... In the first eight months of 1934, during which period the acute lack of foodstuffs continued, the export was even more considerable; 591,835 tons of grain, worth 13.6 million roubles were exported ... via the Black Sea ports."

Human Life in Russia, by Dr. Ewald Ammende, London, G. Allen & Unwin, 1936, page 46
WALTER DURANTY

"In the first fortnight of January (1933) ... Stalin made a speech 'What is wrong,' Stalin asked in effect, 'on the agrarian front? We are wrong, my comrades -- we, not the peasants nor the weather, nor class enemies, but we Communists, who have the greatest power and authority the world ever saw, yet have made a series of blunders ... We miscalculated the new tactics of hostile forces of boring from within, instead of engaging in open warfare.'"

"In April, 1933, I travelled through Ukraine to Odessa, and ... a Red Army brigade commander (General) told me: 'We had a communal farm in Ukraine attached to my regiment ... Everything went well until a year ago (1932). Then the whole set-up changed. We began to get letters asking for food. Can you imagine that, that they asked food from us? We sent what we could, but I didn't know what had happened until I went to the farm only a month ago (March 1933). My God, you wouldn't beleive it. The people were almost starving. Their animals were dead. I'll tell you more, there wasn't a cat or dog in the whole village, and that is no good sign ... Instead of two hundred and fifty families there were only seventy-three, and all of them were half-starved. I asked them what happened. They said 'Our seed grain was taken away last spring.' They said to me, 'Comrade Commander, we are soldiers and most of us are Communists. When the order came that our farm must deliver five hundred tons of grain, we held a meeting. Five hundred tons of grain! We needed four hundred tons to sow our fields, and we only had six hundred tons. But we gave the grain as ordered."

What was the result? I asked the brigade commander.

"Barren fields," he told me. "Do you know that they ate their horses and oxen, such as was left of them? They were starving, do you know that? Their tractors were rusty and useless; and remember, these folks weren't kulaks, weren't class enemies. They were our own people, our soldiers. I was horrified ..."

USSR: The Story of Soviet Russia, by Walter Duranty, New York, 1944, pages 194-5
MAURICE HINDUS

"The more well to-do peasants continued to resist the movement, and to dispose of their opposition, the Soviets proceeded to liquidate them."

The Great Offensive, by Maurice Hindus, New York, 1933, page 154

"Worst of all the excessive collection of grain. This was carried out with especial vigor."

(Hindus, page 151)

"Thousands (of people) came to Moscow, because they knew that in Moscow there was an abundance of food. The Ukraine with its lovely lands and its lovely skies and its lovely white villages was siezed with panic and gloom. The mortality of livestock from starvation during this time was enormous."

(Hindus, page 153)

"I never had seen such an abundance of weeds in the fields as there were in the summer of 1932. Sugar beet in the Kiev area (Ukraine) were literally submerged in weeds."

(Hindus, page 154)

Hindus quotes the Commissar of Agriculture, Yakovlev, who spoke in February 1933 about the Peremozhetz collective farm in Odessa region of Ukraine. "Here," said Yakovlev, "was as choice a farm as there was in that part of the country -- rich soil, superb climate -- Yet in 1932 it failed to fulfill the grain obligation to the government even though the amount was reduced to one-fourth of what it had been the year before, and many a family had in hand only scanty supplies of bread. Of its 153 horses, only 53 were left. The other 100 died of starvation."
RONALD HINGLEY

"The same year (1932) also saw the outbreak of the second great Soviet famine, in the Ukraine and along the Volga. It claimed some five million further peasant victims -- deliberately sacrificed by Stalin, who continued to dump Soviet grain on world markets while those who had grown it were starving en masse. The new dictator was very largely successful in concealing this disaster from world opinion."

A Condse History of Russia, by Ronald Hingley, New York, Viking Press, 1972, pages 172-73.
S.V. UTECHIN

"The next famine, that of 1932-3 was created artificially by the authorities as a means of breaking the resistance of the peasants to the collectivization of agriculture; ... the grain was removed from the countryside by armed detachments chiefly composed of internal security troops and Komsomol members. (page 175) Millions of peasants died of starvation or were deported and sent to forced labour camps." (page 120).

A Concise Encyclopedia of Russia, by S.V. Utechin, New York, Dutton, 1964.
CLARENCE A. MANNING

"It is difficult to estimate accurately the number who perished in the famine, but it was approximately 4,800,000. This is certainly an underestimate, although certain other calcu- lations will place the number between five and six million."

Ukraine Under the Soviets, by Clarence A. Manning, New York, Bookman Associates, 1953, page 101.
JOHN F. STEWART

"While no official statistics about this tragedy have been published, there is a document - The Small Soviet Encyclopedia of 1940, in which it is stated that Ukraine had in 1927 a population of 32 millions, and in 1939, only twelve years later, a population of 28 million. Where had the 4 millions gone to, apart from what should have been the natural increase of at least another 4 million?"

Tortured but Unconquerable Ukraine, by John F. Stewart. Edinburgh, Scottish League for European Freedom, 1953. page 8.

Spirit
03-24-2008, 12:14 AM
@viv
you can find some information here for the beginning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Why would the Soviet authorities have created a famine when the most scarce resource in the USSR at that time was manpower?

You must be kidding, would anybody put the same question to Hitler or any other mass-murderer? I guess, no. It is undeniable, that human life means nothing for inhuman regime.
The Bolshevik regime is not the only one, who experimented with the weapon of starvation, as you know, there were other examples in the world history.
Stalin tried to crush the resistance and to destroy the Ukrainian people as such (85% of ukrainians lived in villages at that time).
The empire rotten to the core is finally dead, the parliament of Ukraine passed a resolution declaring the famine of 1932–1933 an act of genocide, deliberately organized by the Soviet government against the Ukrainian nation.
It is important, that the world knows about the millions of dead. It´s about memory.

quirk
03-24-2008, 12:18 AM
Hitler did it because of his hatred of the Jews. If the Soviets tried to crush the Ukrainians and killed up to half of them during the famine (as some sources claim) which lasted a few years then why were they unable to destroy the rest of them during the rest of Stalin's life? If they were targeting the Ukrainians then why was there famine in other parts of the Soviet Union during these years?

Spirit
03-24-2008, 12:20 AM
You haven´t read anything on the subject.

quirk
03-24-2008, 12:25 AM
I have read plenty. Answer my questions.

BlackBaron
03-24-2008, 12:33 AM
Hitler did it because of his hatred of the Jews. If the Soviets tried to crush the Ukrainians and killed up to half of them during the famine (as some sources claim) which lasted a few years then why were they unable to destroy the rest of them during the rest of Stalin's life? If they were targeting the Ukrainians then why was there famine in other parts of the Soviet Union during these years?

Because it was not a struggle aganist Ukrainians per se. It was a struggle aganist Christianity.

quirk
03-24-2008, 12:34 AM
Anyone who would like to read in more detail about this I would suggest Fraud, Famine and Fascism: The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard by Douglas Tottle. The entire book can be downloaded in PDF format here:

http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm

quirk
03-24-2008, 12:35 AM
Because it was not a struggle aganist Ukrainians per se. It was a struggle aganist Christianity.

Any sources to back this up, for example from the Soviet archives?

Spirit
03-24-2008, 12:43 AM
I have read plenty. Answer my questions.
you´ve read plenty and now you´re trying to teach me the history of Ukraine?
Thanks, i´ll pay attention.
The parts with an ethnic ukrainian majority were involved as well.

P.S. Tottle is not a professional historian and his revisionist work did not receive any serious attention in the historiography of the subject.

BlackBaron
03-24-2008, 09:46 AM
Any sources to back this up, for example from the Soviet archives?

Quirk how many people were executed by the Russian state in the 19 th century offically? How many people were executed by the Soviete Union in the 20 th century offically?

That should tell you something.

quirk
03-24-2008, 10:42 PM
Quirk how many people were executed by the Russian state in the 19 th century offically? How many people were executed by the Soviete Union in the 20 th century offically?

That should tell you something.

Doesn't actually tell me anything, at least not remotely related to the subject being discussed. Should it?

BlackBaron
03-26-2008, 02:15 AM
Doesn't actually tell me anything, at least not remotely related to the subject being discussed. Should it?

It says a lot about the nature of the Soviet regieme and also what they set out to destory with the backing of Wall Street money manipulators.